D&D General D&D Combat is fictionless

[clearstream]

*P1 has information - they know the basic distances of the goblins, the terrain, etc.

I would add that once P1 has declared that it's a noticeable part of the fiction. He's zeroed in on that 1 goblin, his allies and the goblins can both see it. That should turn the rest into fictional decisions rather than mechanical ones. In short, the declaration phase changes the fiction. Also, I think it's worth noting here that if another creature meets you in the middle - so to speak that you always have the option of attacking that creature instead.

For P2 their move is going to need a general direction. The idea isn't that they get to move wherever they want when their initiative comes up. The DM abjucates positioning based on your declaration. That detail is required. (For melee characters it's kind of built in if they are wanting to attack N1).

Ah, I failed to grasp that. The DM is going to contemplate the declared moves (and any fair updates as the round is resolved) and adjudicate where along their intended paths each participant actually is at moments of interaction. Does that describe it correctly?

I like how the dodge action functions under this system better. It feels more dynamic and response. You see multiple enemies about to gang up on you and so you attempt to defend. Other interesting actions N1 could have attempted would be to fall back and shoot with his bow. P1 might not be able to reach him then.

N2 moving and attacking P2 is going to create is going to create an interesting situation regarding if he gets there before he shoots.

Honestly, I would like to know where you land with your players on this after a few sessions. I ran declare-first combat for years and when RPG design finally figured out how to create streamlined turn-sequences, we switched and never looked back. It strikes me that perhaps we gave up something we could well have demanded of our fiction (i.e. what you demand), in exchange for something that played so much more smoothly (for us) that we happily accommodated it into our fiction.

So far this feels good to me.

I'd just add that N2 is eligible to dash toward his intended target if he can't reach them to attack. If he did so, he likely closes the distance but doesn't find a good opportunity to attack after doing so.


*Initiative is going to be rerolled. So P1 cannot assume he will go first again. I probably could have made this more clear

I urge you to run through some sample turn orderings. I did so, and assumed that you couldn't have intended re-rolling initiative each round. The problem you will have to think about is that there are many - until the start (or end) of your next turn - effects in 5th edition that re-rolling each round is going to break.

Additionally, actions and reactions are spaced out with care by the game designers, and rolling each round is going to sometimes give sequences that are very powerful (or vulnerable). Such as cast, win initiative, cast. Combats will become more volatile in consequence, and sometimes that is going to feel bad at your table. For me, it is also in conflict with your professed desires: because you will have to gloss-over how some participant gains such tempo upbeats. From experience, that will sometimes feel SoD-breaking.

 

[FrogReaver]

@clearstream

It would probably help if I take your example, make some slight adjustments and try to show what I envision.

Round 1 declarations (P leads)
P1 (Barbarian) has no information: they declare in the dark that they will move and attack N1
P2 (Warlock) knows what P1 declared: often dropping one foe is better than dividing attacks, so they declare move and attack N1 attack and then fall back
N1 (Goblin) knowing what P1 and P2 declared: they are going to dodge
N2 (Goblin) knows everyone's declarations: they are safe to move and attack P2

Round 1 initiative rolled
P1 = 20
P2 = 10
N2 = 5
N1 = 1

DM Abjucation
Before P1's turn he has advanced up to N1. P2 is still looking for a good opening to shoot his EB. N2 has advanced almost to P2. N1 hasn't been able to set up a proper defense to the large barbarian that's just rushed up to him yet.

DM: P1 it's your.
P1: I recklessly attack N1.
DM: you hit!

DM Abjucation
Just a moment later the barbarian must have knocked N1 off balance. P2 you've found your opening and just in the nick of time. N2 is still close but not right on top of you yet. N1 is even less sure of what defensive posture he should take than ever.

DM: P2 it's your turn
P2: I cast EB at N1.
DM: you miss.

DM Abjucation
The very next moment P2 starts falling back as fast as he can from N2. N2 sees him running away. N1 is still in the same predicament

DM to N2 (himself): To puruse you'll have to give up your action this round to dash. Do you wish to do that?
N2: For this exercise the answer is no as the Goblin wants to be in position to fall back and help his friend. (Presumably the goblin could have pulled out a bow and still attacked P2, but for this exercise he doesn't do that either).
DM: Your turn is over

DM Abjucation
N1 finally finds the right defensive stance and no other openings are found this round.

That's more of how I envision this system going. You can see how the fiction gets established up to the moment right before the characters initiative.

 

[clearstream]

@clearstream

It would probably help if I take your example, make some slight adjustments and try to show what I envision.

Round 1 declarations (P leads)
P1 (Barbarian) has no information: they declare in the dark that they will move and attack N1
P2 (Warlock) knows what P1 declared: often dropping one foe is better than dividing attacks, so they declare move and attack N1 attack and then fall back
N1 (Goblin) knowing what P1 and P2 declared: they are going to dodge
N2 (Goblin) knows everyone's declarations: they are safe to move and attack P2

Round 1 initiative rolled
P1 = 20
P2 = 10
N2 = 5
N1 = 1

DM Abjucation
Before P1's turn he has advanced up to N1. P2 is still looking for a good opening to shoot his EB. N2 has advanced almost to P2. N1 hasn't been able to set up a proper defense to the large barbarian that's just rushed up to him yet.

DM: P1 it's your.
P1: I recklessly attack N1.
DM: you hit!

DM Abjucation
Just a moment later the barbarian must have knocked N1 off balance. P2 you've found your opening and just in the nick of time. N2 is still close but not right on top of you yet. N1 is even less sure of what defensive posture he should take than ever.

DM: P2 it's your turn
P2: I cast EB at N1.
DM: you miss.

DM Abjucation
The very next moment P2 starts falling back as fast as he can from N2. N2 sees him running away. N1 is still in the same predicament

DM to N2 (himself): To puruse you'll have to give up your action this round to dash. Do you wish to do that?
N2: For this exercise the answer is no as the Goblin wants to be in position to fall back and help his friend. (Presumably the goblin could have pulled out a bow and still attacked P2, but for this exercise he doesn't do that either).
DM: Your turn is over

DM Abjucation
N1 finally finds the right defensive stance and no other openings are found this round.

That's more of how I envision this system going. You can see how the fiction gets established up to the moment right before the characters initiative.

Why not also have DM adjudicate initiative. Something like

Round 1 declarations (P leads)
P1 (Barbarian) has no information: they declare in the dark that they will move and attack N1
P2 (Warlock) knows what P1 declared: often dropping one foe is better than dividing attacks, so they declare attack and then fall back
N1 (Goblin) knowing what P1 and P2 declared: they are going to dodge
N2 (Goblin) knows everyone's declarations: they are safe to move and attack P2

Round 1 initiative adjudicated
N1 = 20 - as DM, I felt getting into a defensive stance is faster than moving and then attacking
P1 = 10 - it feels right to me to have P1 right after N2, the player decides to go Reckless, counteracting N1's Dodge
P2 = 5 - the split with N1 could go either way, so I decide to favour the PC, who blasts then falls back to cover
N2 = 1 - it felt to me like they had to shape their turn to P2s, so I'm okay with giving them last turn this round, they rush toward P2

Round 2 declarations (N leads)
N1 (Goblin) sees P1 vulnerable and wants to attack them, calling N2 to pile in
N2 (Goblin) switches to piling in on P1
P1 (Barbarian) feels a bit concerned to be Reckless at this point, but has plenty of HP and will attack N1 normally
P2 (Warlock) wants to continue stepping out, blasting, stepping back

Round 2 initiative adjudicated
N1 = 20 - I see no reason not to let N1 have at least one attack while P1 is vulnerable
P1 = 10 - I see no reason not to have them act next
N2 = 5 - on balance, I feel they should have a chance to strike at P1 before P2 can try and drop them
P2 = 1 - they are acting with caution, so I'm saying they go after the others who are more all-in

 

[FrogReaver]

Why not also have DM adjudicate initiative. Something like

Round 1 declarations (P leads)
P1 (Barbarian) has no information: they declare in the dark that they will move and attack N1
P2 (Warlock) knows what P1 declared: often dropping one foe is better than dividing attacks, so they declare attack and then fall back
N1 (Goblin) knowing what P1 and P2 declared: they are going to dodge
N2 (Goblin) knows everyone's declarations: they are safe to move and attack P2

Round 1 initiative adjudicated
N1 = 20 - as DM, I felt getting into a defensive stance is faster than moving and then attacking
P1 = 10 - it feels right to me to have P1 right after N2, the player decides to go Reckless, counteracting N1's Dodge
P2 = 5 - the split with N1 could go either way, so I decide to favour the PC, who blasts then falls back to cover
N2 = 1 - it felt to me like they had to shape their turn to P2s, so I'm okay with giving them last turn this round, they rush toward P2

Round 2 declarations (N leads)
N1 (Goblin) sees P1 vulnerable and wants to attack them, calling N2 to pile in
N2 (Goblin) switches to piling in on P1
P1 (Barbarian) feels a bit concerned to be Reckless at this point, but has plenty of HP and will attack N1 normally
P2 (Warlock) wants to continue stepping out, blasting, stepping back

Round 2 initiative adjudicated
N1 = 20 - I see no reason not to let N1 have at least one attack while P1 is vulnerable
P1 = 10 - I see no reason not to have them act next
N2 = 5 - on balance, I feel they should have a chance to strike at P1 before P2 can try and drop them
P2 = 1 - they are acting with caution, so I'm saying they go after the others who are more all-in

I think the dodge action is a good candidate for an initiative boost mechanic. Declaring the dodge action grants +10 initiative. Seems like it would alleviate the concerns around dodging in this system.

But most of that I don't agree with. Combat is a place where PC's can die. Abjucating that N1 gets to attack the reckless attacking barbarian in round 2 just because you see no reason not to let that happen seems too much like DM fiat against the PC's. I think there can still be some room for abjucating different initiatives based on combat actions - i don't think it should be done often or lightly. I don't think it needs to be done much if any either.

 

[Lyxen]

I had forgotten the delay action I do not think I have seen it used much do your group delay to clump their actions together to create this side initiative? (what benefit are they getting)

Delaying started with 3e and was used a lot, usually to really bad effect like "I'm not sure I can act optimally now, so I'll just delay until it's optimal", with the result that combat took a lot more time because people were being asked what they wanted to do multiple times, and then, when an opportunity appeared, suddenly everyone wanted to act at the same time. For me, it really was bad design, and I'm really happy that in 5e, there is only the "ready" action, which is way more logical and also makes you, in most cases, at least slightly less efficient, which in turn incites you to act on your turn without disturbing the initiative order and maintaining the streamlining of the game.

 

[pemerton]

Yea, fictionless was probably not the best initial term, but it got the ball rolling. I still stand by it, but I can see how it causes confusion for some.

Well, for what it's worth I thought your point was clear from the get-go. And I think it's an interesting issue worth discussing. Which is why I'm intervening to try and keep it on-topic!

 

[CapnZapp]

Ultimately, it's a game, not a narrative.

If you want to give freedom to act to your players you will have to accept them taking actions they benefit from (whether these benefits are like "I don't die" or "this makes my character's personality richer").

If you want characters to act more like "in the movies" you need a ruleset that rewards such behavior.

I mean, it's not strictly the only solution and therefore saying "you need this" isn't strictly true.

But trying to make players act in ways that aren't in their characters' best interest is imo never gonna work out in the end.

The only real way is to make the game allow and reward actions you want to see.

 

[clearstream]

I think the dodge action is a good candidate for an initiative boost mechanic. Declaring the dodge action grants +10 initiative. Seems like it would alleviate the concerns around dodging in this system.

I had a similar thought (and you often see such modifiers suggested for declare-before-action systems). Were you to formalise a set of declarations (much like the formal actions) then you could associate an initiative modifier to each. Dodge declaration = +3 initiative. Attack = +0. Move to attack = -1. Depending how baroque one wanted to go, weapons and armors could have speeds i.e. modifiers to initiative. Additionally, you could balance until-start-of-next-turn features the same way. Reckless Attack = -3 on next initiative roll.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, for what it's worth I thought your point was clear from the get-go. And I think it's an interesting issue worth discussing. Which is why I'm intervening to try and keep it on-topic!

FWIW I immediately understood the original point; no clarification needed.

 

[clearstream]

Well, for what it's worth I thought your point was clear from the get-go. And I think it's an interesting issue worth discussing. Which is why I'm intervening to try and keep it on-topic!

I didn't understand the initial point because I took fictionless literally. And (taken literally) that criticism makes zero sense.

Not the fiction one prefers, okay. Not the fiction that matches the world as you know it, and that disrupts your SoD, easily understood. But fictionless! That would be frankly baloney.