D&D Combat Time - Edition comparisons

[Mark CMG]

For the final combat, I recruited a friend of one of my players to help me run the bad guys, so that helped to save a ton of time and made me less of a bottleneck. The main bad guys usually had to be evil clerics, as the entire campaign was centered around the players thwarting the evil high priest of slavery & tyranny.

However, the last combat still ended up taking two entire overtime sessions - probably 11+ hours in total. We normally gamed for about 4 hours, but ended up going 5 1/2 to 6 hours for the finale.

I would work out strategies for the bad guys ahead of time, but the players in my group were often pretty creative, so most strategies got thrown out the window after the first round. I'd have to react to the changed situation on the ground.

It was also very common for a player or major bad guy to die in combat, get revivified and then healed and rejoin the combat. In the last combat, the dwarf fighter got hit with Implosion and surprisingly failed his Fortitude save. The PC cleric, on her turn, then invoked a 5,000 XP Miracle to instantly resurrect the dwarf (normal casting time was 10 minutes.)

Two combats before that, the players had a showdown with a large group of drow, including one nemesis who had survived three previous combats with the party, the first when they were level 4. During the combat, both sides were pretty battered and down low in hit points. However, the same cleric that did the Miracle was able to cast Mass Heal and restore 160 or 170 hit points apiece to almost the whole party. Other than being down several spells/power points, the party was basically whole. A few turns later that round, the drow priestess was going to do the same thing for her side (what I had decided as the DM) - however, one of the PCs managed to cut her down before she could cast, saving us from basically being almost back to square one in that combat. (I had visions of everybody saying, "We've gamed for 5 hours and everybody is at full hit points? WTF?")

You keep missing most of my questions (which would help me understand why some of these things take so much time, I think) but "11+ hours in total" really has me reeling. I could see maybe 2-3 hours for a combined combat (twice the PCs, three times the usual opponents, approx) but that is truly outrageous. I suppose there is the notion that with extra healers those "resets" essentially negate earlier rounds. Did everyone on both sides come into this huge combat completely fresh? A typical combat in 3.5 is meant to garner about 20% of a party's resources, so it's also tough to not look at an all or nothing, do or die, 100% on the line combat as a bit more, too. All in all it is not in any way (number of opponents, number of PCs, expectation of "win or lose all" situation, etc.) a typical 18th-level combat, from what I am seeing, so it is tough for me to use it in direct comparison to other combats of similar levels in other editions. Still, 2 1/2 times the typical combatants times five for the do or die rather than twenty percent typical resource encounter would probably take me a great deal more than usual, too. Did you at least get a couple of Attaboys for running it?

 

[MerricB]

Why do so many people have such a hang-up with time? In essence, its all about player and DM preparedness.

I think you could have your game streamlined down to thee perfect timing but you'd still have players deciding what they want to do or BS-ing with other players.

Its just players being social.

I wish it was merely that. No, system does actually matter. In 3.5E, for instance, a high level round for a fighter might go like this:

* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage
* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage
* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage
* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage
* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage
* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage

That takes significantly more time than "roll d20, hit, roll 2d6+2 damage". Adding up lots and lots of dice is very time consuming.

Cheers!

 

[Mark CMG]

I wish it was merely that. No, system does actually matter. In 3.5E, for instance, a high level round for a fighter might go like this:

* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage
* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage
* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage
* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage
* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage
* Attack: roll d20, hit, roll 6d6+modifiers damage

That takes significantly more time than "roll d20, hit, roll 2d6+2 damage". Adding up lots and lots of dice is very time consuming.

Cheers!

MerricB, that takes like a minute or two. I really think the primary examples of time consumption fall under the headings of "rules searching" (particularly spells and effects), "recalculating buffs/effects" and "too many choices" (again, often pointing heavily toward spell choices, or psionic power choices). I suppose if you have a player who repeatdly blows on the dice, shakes them until the pips fall off, and then rolls off of the table as often as not it might add up to some serious time.

 

[mhensley]

That's an impressive amount of testing. Were all of the fighters optimized, as much as any edition would allow?

Yes. Of course, pre 3e didn't really allow for much in the way of optimization.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

The most dreaded thing any 3e spellcaster can say: "I cast Dispel Magic."

Second place is "I'm summoning some monsters"

 

[Mark CMG]

Yes. Of course, pre 3e didn't really allow for much in the way of optimization.

Weapon and armor choice, at the least, I suppose. If I dug out the books, what other things would we find as choices made that could be construed as optimized in early editions (anyone, really)?

 

[mhensley]

Weapon and armor choice, at the least, I suppose. If I dug out the books, what other things would we find as choices made that could be construed as optimized in early editions (anyone, really)?

2e fighters got weapon specialization which is a big advantage.

 

[MerricB]

Weapon and armor choice, at the least, I suppose. If I dug out the books, what other things would we find as choices made that could be construed as optimized in early editions (anyone, really)?

Spell selection.

Magic item choice (amongst a limited supply, but still deciding whether to blow the Horn of Blasting or use a Wand of Fire is a choice).

Weapon Specialization.

Cheers!

 

[Mark CMG]

Spell selection.

Magic item choice (amongst a limited supply, but still deciding whether to blow the Horn of Blasting or use a Wand of Fire is a choice).

Weapon Specialization.

Cheers!

True but remember that these are for the first level fighters in the test cases above (one from each edition).

 

[pemerton]

Personally, I think it'd be a lot quicker if some of the players had better organised character sheets

Too true!