D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[doctorbadwolf]

The idea that D&D basically contains or could easily be made to contain all the valuable things other games bring to the table is just wrong.

Who has ever suggested this?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The reality is that system matters, and your position is a flat denial that system matters, however you spin it.

This. You can send D&D characters into space, but it remains D&D in space.

If I want to have a starship battle the D&D rules don't cover it, but other RPGs do.

 

[Charlaquin]

You could, but it’s gonna be a lot more work, IMO, to get a satisfying result. It took me less than 1 hour to make D&D do heists. I ran a fairy tale arc in the same campaign, and I really didn’t add much, I just had a character grow treant armor while defending a dryad grove and its ancient sentient Nemeton tree, and used some opposed success-ladder rolls when the ranger got turned into a stag in order to symbolically fight the Night Stag so it could turn into the Dawn Stag and allow spring to come.
Same campaign, they explored an abandoned Wizard tower with moving rooms and other similar stuff, and I put together some simple mechanics to model them figuring out how to control the tower and use it to help defend against a horde of dolgaunts.

I mean... None of this reads as particularly far outside of D&D’s wheelhouse to me. You’re still fundamentally playing the sort of game D&D is designed to be, and adding some custom mechanics when you feel they’re warranted. That’s... A very different thing than what most people are talking about when they suggest playing a game built for something else specific.

 

[cbwjm]

It's a mistake to suggest to someone who wants to do an occasional heist in their D&D game that they should instead play Blades in the Dark. Likewise it is also a mistake to think you can easily capture what makes Blades in the Dark so good through a rough hack of its heist rules. Blades is more than its heist rules. The idea that D&D basically contains or could easily be made to contain all the valuable things other games bring to the table is just wrong. Luckily it has a lot that it uniquely brings to the table.

I think most of the time though, when people want to create a system, like heist rules, they aren't really trying to capture the feel of another entire gaming experience. Rather, they are just trying to make a system that works well enough within the dnd framework. I think that's part of the problem that leads others to suggest "Just play X", they think that you want the exact experience that another system offers when really you just want something that will work for a single session and that can be used for later sessions if required.

 

[Charlaquin]

I know some folks claim that D&D doesn't handle other genres well. My experience is different. I've run every version of D&D from ODD to 5e and pathfinder. I hate dungeon crawls with a passion and stopped running them back in high school (around 1982).

(...)

Folks should just run what they like. I get tired of folks claiming that BRP doesn't work for dungeon adventuring and that D&D didn't work unless it's all about treasure and dungeons. People have been running mysteries, horror, science fantasy and social interaction games in D&D since it was first published.

You know, I’ve observed that a lot of people who express similar sentiments also focus on the dungeon crawls thing. And like... I don’t think it’s really in dispute that D&D can do things other than dungeon crawls? I mean, sure, a lot of D&D is geared towards that, but I think when people say “D&D doesn’t do other genres well,” they’re not saying D&D can’t do mysteries, or politics, or survival/horror, or scifi or whatever. They’re saying that D&D does those things in a way that is very particular to D&D, and that if you’re looking to do something that isn’t so particular to D&D, it is often better to look elsewhere.

I've been running a consistent modern arcana game in 5e since I stated running the game. The setting has strong Lovecraftian horror elements as well (in a more dark fantasy mode than insanity-death spiral mode since that's my least favorite part of CoC). The game is a lot of fun for me and the players.

Right, so this is kinda what I’m getting at. Yes, you can run a game in a modern setting with strong Lovecraftian horror elements using D&D’s system. But it’s still a fundamentally different sort of game than, say, Call of Cthulu, due to the way the different systems are designed to create different play patterns. D&D characters start relatively weak and accumulate power as they overcome challenges and gain experience, whereas CoC characters start at their strongest and are continually worn down through physical and psychological trauma until they can no longer keep going. You say the insanity-death spiral mode is your least favorite part of CoC, but that, far more so than the setting or the particular dice mechanics, is what makes CoC, CoC. And it’s something D&D doesn’t really do well. For someone who does want that kind of play, CoC is going to suit their needs better than D&D does.

Sometimes I run two different chronicles, one D&D and the other BRP/HERO with current sets of characters and stories in the same setting at the same time (alternate days of course)

I've also been giving out about 1/10th the treasure since the mid-80s.

The only argument that works for me about 5e inadequacy to these genres is the skill argument. When I want to run a skill heavy game I use HERO or BRP or my own bastardized system that adds the BRP skill system to the HERO chassis (I loathe 3d6 rolls for skills).

This doesn't come from a point of ignorance. I've also run BRP, HERO and GURPS from the first published edition. I used to be the guy who organized GURPS play at conventions in Tucson.

I'm also running Age of Worms for my kids in BRP. It hasn't changed the enjoyment of the game at all.

It’s interesting to me that your focus seems to be heavily on general RPG systems rather than highly specific ones. GURPS, BRP, d20, they’re all big-tent systems designed to be usable for a wide variety of different settings and genres. Even CoC is basically a Lovecraftian BRP hack. I believe what’s being discussed here are the far more specific systems made to do one particular thing very well.

 

[Jaeger]

This. You can send D&D characters into space, but it remains D&D in space.

If I want to have a starship battle the D&D rules don't cover it, but other RPGs do.

Well, in his defense he could mod in a form of the d20 Star Wars saga starship rules...

But essentially you are correct. D20 star wars was D&D in space with a Star Wars veneer...


Because This:

None of this reads as particularly far outside of D&D’s wheelhouse to me. You’re still fundamentally playing the sort of game D&D is designed to be, and adding some custom mechanics when you feel they’re warranted. That’s... A very different thing than what most people are talking about when they suggest playing a game built for something else specific.

Classes and Levels? Hit point Bloat? Just keeping those three assumptions enforces a certain style of play that is very D&D no matter what genre you are playing in.

Although I think some of the comparisons on this thread of system extremes (D&D vs PBtA games) are very apples and oranges; I do believe the core point is correct.

System does matter.

Different systems induce different play paradigms at the table. People play their characters differently and engage with the setting differently depending on the system used.

Different systems create unique RPG experiences at the table during play.

But I have learned something in my internet wanderings; that for a great many people the most import equation for their RPG play is this:

Familiarity > System.

All that stuff I just wrote about other systems 'different play paradigms' and how they 'create unique RPG experiences'? They. Don't. Care.

Don't want to be bothered. Don't want to hear it.

If they can mod what they are familiar with to do something that more or less works 'good enough' at their table, then:

Familiarity + Good Enough = Different System no can Defend.

Why? Because they don't want to change rules systems. That's why.

And I can't really hate on that decision. After all this is a hobby we do for our own personal pleasure.

"Because I don't want to." is a valid personal choice.

 

[S'mon]

D&D is great for having heists, romances, etc as part of a larger campaign where the default activity is going into dungeons, killing things, and hopefully getting treasure. It's not an ideal tool for a game solely about romance, or heists. And of course it's not a Story Making game - it is not designed* to create dramatically satisfying narratives, it is a 'you are there' game. It's good (IMO) at creating a feeling of immersion in a high fantasy world with the PCs as powerful adventurers/heroes.

I'd definitely strongly disagree with the proposition that "If you want to have X in your game, don't play D&D, play game Y". A big strength of D&D is that you can throw pretty much anything in there! "If you want a game centred on X, don't play D&D, play game Y" is a reasonable proposition. A D&D game with Cthulu elements is a very different thing from playing a Cthulu horror game. Either may be better depending on what you want.

*Albeit I certainly have seen dramatically satisfying narratives emerge during long-term play.

 

[S'mon]

Well, in his defense he could mod in a form of the d20 Star Wars saga starship rules...

But essentially you are correct. D20 star wars was D&D in space with a Star Wars veneer...

I found D&D/d20 a terrible fit for Star Wars - D6 System all the way! D&D doesn't really do 'pulp' genre well at all IME. I think D&D ought to be able to do a more Guardians of the Galaxy style Sci-Fi ok, but basically it will always be D&D In Space.

 

[Ixal]

I find D&D to be rather inflexible because of basically all the things Ruin Explorer said in the 2nd post of this thread. Especially the class/level mechanic which allows mid to high level PCs to basically ignore many NPCs influences what you can reasonably do (unless you suddenly have level 7+ guards everywhere). It does dungeon crawls well and yes, you can also do other things a bit. But imo systems like Shadowrun or Traveller give me a lot more tools to cover many more situations and styles than D&D does.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I disagree. I play other games sometimes, to tell short stories with my friends, or to explore and learn different ways of running and constructing a game. For my regular game, I'd almost always rather play dnd. Not only am I so familiar with it that I don't need to think about the rules to use them, but it is a game that is very easy to add to.

And here I'd say that there's a huge difference between adding to a game and morphing a game. D&D is a hacked tabletop wargame where some of its central features are:

• Almost consequence free (for the survivors) combat
• Relatively controlled outcomes that are pass/fail
• Larger than life characters able to survive most situations - but who are "street level" superheroes at most.
• Linear character growth where the characters level up
• Controlled, predictable, and reliable magic
• The environment being external to the characters rather than the characters being integrated into the setting

If I want to keep all of the above then D&D is a pretty good starting point. If I want to substantially change any of them it isn't.

Blades in the Dark is not a great game for heists because it gives you flashback mechanics (stolen from Leverage). You could do that in D&D. It's a great game for a heist crew that are barely keeping things together, and where consequences both of each individual roll can bite in both expected and unexpected ways. And where wounds make it harder for the characters and it takes more than a few days of light activity to recover.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is a game where I start with a genuine position in the world whether it's ratcatcher, gravedigger, or highwayman - but their destiny isn't almost locked in at the start in the way a fighter is likely to remain a fighter through their entire career. Combat is always dangerous; you're one bad roll away from not so much death but an injury that's still affecting your character a dozen seconds later. And magic is powerful, scary, unreliable, and every spell has a chance of blowing back in your face.

Getting either the Blades or WFRP experiences in D&D would require house rules that are tantamount to a complete rebuild of the system.

I certainly wasn't going to tell my group to remake their characters in Blades in The Dark, expect everyone to learn that system in order to participate in the next story arc, and then go back to DnD when we were done with that job.

I have literally never heard of anyone doing this.

So, for me, "you'd be better off playing a game that is made for that" usually rings hollow. What about you?

For me the idea that you can do anything in D&D rings hollow. And even 5e is a bulky enough system that I could teach Blades as easily as I could houserule 5e.