D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Fanaelialae]

Your statement is true, but it only supports a straw-man that the OP put up, it's not relevant to an actual discussion. No one in the real world is picking a bespoke game trying to make it a big tent game. That's just not the direction you take if you are intentionally picking a bespoke game.

Sure, but I don't see it as a straw man. If you want to run a game with elements of D&D play (like exploring a mega dungeon) plus heist play, which system do you choose to modify? (Also, while it's neither here nor there, I've had people recently try to convince me that D&D is a bespoke game rather than big tent, though I'm not buying it.)

Obviously, if someone's already built the perfect system to support everything you are looking for, then there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. However, in many instances, that simply may not be the case. It's easier (IMO) to hack heist rules into D&D than mega dungeon exploration rules into Blades.

It may be that familiarity plays a role in this, but I generally find D&D easier to hack than most games, even when I'm dealing with a new edition that I haven't yet become familiar with. I expect it has to do with bespoke games having a more tightly focused design that is designed to do its intended gameplay well and isn't meant to be tinkered with too much. Whereas D&D has a long history of being tinkered with.

 

[Shiroiken]

D&D is somewhat unique in that it's not designed around a specific setting or theme, but instead meant to be fairly generic, allowing the DM to use whatever specific type of game they want. This has advantages and disadvantages, as while it can do a lot of different types of things, it won't do them a well as a game that is designed around specific themes. Because of this, some people think it's better to play the game that's specific to the desired theme, but that can also limit your options, since those games have difficulty doing some things D&D can do. Everything has a trade off, so sometimes it's better to modify D&D to do what you need it to do, while other times you're better off with another system.

 

[Neonchameleon]

D&D is somewhat unique in that it's not designed around a specific setting or theme, but instead meant to be fairly generic, allowing the DM to use whatever specific type of game they want. This has advantages and disadvantages, as while it can do a lot of different types of things, it won't do them a well as a game that is designed around specific themes. Because of this, some people think it's better to play the game that's specific to the desired theme, but that can also limit your options, since those games have difficulty doing some things D&D can do. Everything has a trade off, so sometimes it's better to modify D&D to do what you need it to do, while other times you're better off with another system.

I'd hardly call D&D "somewhat unique" in that respect. D&D is IME at least as tied to its themes as WFRP, Fate, or Apocalypse World and somewhat moreso (with somewhat less good hacking advice) than GURPS. It's not, however, a tight game like Blades or Monsterhearts.

And what makes D&D suitable for dungeon crawls is the tabletop wargame legacy (that also weakens it for Theatre of the Mind). GURPS, WFRP, and even the World of Darkness do pretty good dungeon crawls.

 

[S'mon]

I ran a bunch of Old-D&D dungeon adventures in the Primeval Thule setting using Mini Six (D6 System, like WEG Star Wars). Orange Cover Palace of the Silver Princess worked well, so did Halls of Tizun Thane. The Licheway a bit less so, mostly because

Spoiler: SPOILER

"hundreds of skeletons rising from the grave"

in D&D means guaranteed attrition of hit points; in D6 System tough PCs don't get attrited by weak foes and I had to turn into a kind of terrain effect.

The feel was definitely different, although D&D and D6 System are both traditional games.

 

[Ixal]

D&D is somewhat unique in that it's not designed around a specific setting or theme, but instead meant to be fairly generic, allowing the DM to use whatever specific type of game they want. This has advantages and disadvantages, as while it can do a lot of different types of things, it won't do them a well as a game that is designed around specific themes. Because of this, some people think it's better to play the game that's specific to the desired theme, but that can also limit your options, since those games have difficulty doing some things D&D can do. Everything has a trade off, so sometimes it's better to modify D&D to do what you need it to do, while other times you're better off with another system.

I disagree. D&D is as specific (around a theme) as many other RPGs, only that this theme, combat or dungeon crawls with superheroic characters, is by now considered the default by many who do not recognize that it is a specific theme.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Attrition is a big thing. In many non-D&D RPGs if you get hit you are out.

 

[Minigiant]

I think most of the time though, when people want to create a system, like heist rules, they aren't really trying to capture the feel of another entire gaming experience. Rather, they are just trying to make a system that works well enough within the dnd framework. I think that's part of the problem that leads others to suggest "Just play X", they think that you want the exact experience that another system offers when really you just want something that will work for a single session and that can be used for later sessions if required.

Exactly. There is a difference between have a mass combat or deep diplomacy or fantasy horror as a session and as a campaign.

My Saturday game is about guild warfare but we never really get into management, running, and fighting actual guilds. They are midtier level members with an usual state of autonomy. So it works in D&D with a bit of lore and houserules.

HOWEVER If a major NPC of their guild died and they were forced to actually run a branch of the guild full time, I'd likely have to change games.

In my own RPG, Guildgear, the dragon at the bottom of a dungeon isn't the biggest threat to your life. It's the members of your guild, other guild, and your patrons. The setup before you go adventurering is important and the resolution of combat is designed to have weak goblins OHKO powerful archmages.

 

[Hussar]

I’ll let my group know that out mass combat and ship combat experiences didn’t happen!

How is this a response to what I said. I didn't say you couldn't do it. I said that it would be a very lengthy, drawn out and quite frankly boring encounter unless you gloss over a LOT of rules. Trying to actually go through 40+ actions every round would be mind bogglingly boring.

Can you do it? Sure. But, that doesn't mean that the system works particularly well for it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

You can use the d20 rules (and the offshoot 5E rules) to add or create from whole cloth any type of genre or style to a D&D game that you want. Some additions/creations will be easy... some will be difficult. Some will work seamlessly with the rest of the game's rules... some will be a kludge. Some will uphold the genre or convention... some will run completely counter to it.

There is nothing wrong with trying to flex your design muscles to add to the game that is D&D. It's great practice, it's great fun, and it helps you understand the game better to allow you to run the game better in the future. But there is also nothing wrong with acknowledging that some games/genres/styles are more easily typified by using other game mechanics. Playing a Call of C'thulu style game using the class level system of d20 does not give you the same feel as a game designed specifically for that style (especially once characters are reaching levels 5, 8, 12, and so on.)

The truth is though that certain types of games have conceits that ask for some very specific mechanics to emulate certain things. And while you can try and create them use the race/class/level framework of d20... they don't necessarily lend themselves to doing a very good job. Now if you don't actually care how close to the conventions or genre you are, then whatever you come up with works fine. But if (general) you come here onto EN World saying you want to run a game that is in the style of The Goonies... of course people are going to direct you to Tales From The Loop or Kids On Bikes, rather than start throwing out dozens upon dozens of ideas and game changes in order to try and turn D&D into The Goonies. Because at the end of the day... playing a Mikey or a Chunk that ends up at 13th level with the mechanics of a paladin and over 100 hit points is not in any way going to actually feel like playing young teenage kids.

And of course it also doesn't help that oftentimes someone's post about adapting D&D to this other style/genre/property is coupled with a few veiled insults to the designers of D&D that they didn't make it simple enough to do this on their own, which is why they're coming here looking for advice. "Well, if the D&D designers weren't lazy and had the rules already in the game like they obviously should have, I wouldn't have this issue!" Not all people are like that obviously... some just want genuine help... but there's not a one of us that hasn't seen accusations of stupidity or laziness on the part of the designers when it comes to all different parts of the D&D rules. And when we see it, there's definitely an urge to come back with "Just use Z system then instead you whiny jerk!" And it takes a lot to hold our tongues.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I disagree. D&D is as specific (around a theme) as many other RPGs, only that this theme, combat or dungeon crawls with superheroic characters, is by now considered the default by many who do not recognize that it is a specific theme.

Yup this is the classic "fish don't know what water is"-type scenario.

D&D is extremely specific. It's broadly appealing, but that doesn't make it any less specific - I mean Fortnite is very broadly appealing, as is Minecraft, but they're also extremely specific.

D&D is somewhat unique in that it's not designed around a specific setting or theme, but instead meant to be fairly generic, allowing the DM to use whatever specific type of game they want.

This is not true on like a bunch of different levels, it's amazing lol.

First off, unique? What the actual hell? There are DOZENS of generic RPGs, probably even of generic fantasy RPGs! Unique is a totally bizarre and weird thing to say.

Secondly, D&D doesn't have a precisely specific setting, but it has a huge implied setting from the spells, monsters, etc, and it's themes are as limited by the rules as a lot of indie TT RPGs. It can't be be used "for whatever type of game you want" any more or any less than hundreds of other TT RPGs. This is just demonstrably untrue.