D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[loverdrive]

I just accidentally put a cig in my mouth the wrong way, and it did hurt like all the nine hells, but I thought of something I didn't think of before.

Sure, when you're running a long-long damn campaign and want to have a bunch of heists, switching to Blades, or switching to GUMSHOE when you have a short detective episode are both stupid ideas, like, no one questions that.

But there's another thing worth questioning. Is running a long-long damn campaign, longer than Long Dick Johnson's, with an OCEAN'S 11-style HEISTS arc, then a MURDER ON THE ORIENT EXPRESS DETECTIVE arc, then WILDERNESS EXPLORATION arc, then, idk, TEENAGE DRAMA arc actually a good or sane idea?

 

[Aldarc]

I just accidentally put a cig in my mouth the wrong way, and it did hurt like all the nine hells, but I thought of something I didn't think of before.

Sure, when you're running a long-long damn campaign and want to have a bunch of heists, switching to Blades, or switching to GUMSHOE when you have a short detective episode are both stupid ideas, like, no one questions that.

But there's another thing worth questioning. Is running a long-long damn campaign, longer than Long Dick Johnson's, with a HEISTS arc, then DETECTIVE arc, then URBAN EXPLORATION arc, then, idk, TEENAGE DRAMA arc actually a good or sane idea?

I don't think that it's an inherently insane idea. It will depend on the beats, flow, and how it's constructed. I could see a Heists, Detective, and Urban Exploration arc work incredibly well in the city of Sharn for Eberron. Not sure about the Teenage Drama arc though, but this is a genre that tends not to even get a whisper in the "D&D can do everything" discussion. But I don't think that being able to do so is somehow unique to D&D. One could, for example, run such a game in Eberron using Savage Worlds, Cortex Prime, or the Cypher System. The main point is that these various arcs would be tonally appropriate for the Eberron setting, which is somewhat orthogonal to whether D&D 5E can do it or not.

 

[Lanefan]

Fair enough. I enjoy running groups the way I do, obviously, but if the action is between fewer than 20 total combatants, I will put groups on one initiative instead, and move the whole group, then have each attack, then next turn. Which is still similar to treating them as one creature, I suppose.

Fair enough.

Ah, okay. Other than wind and tides, what was missing from the ship rules in Saltmarsh, if you don’t mind me asking?

Two things missing. One is the book itself: I don't own it, and nor does anyone else in our crew that I know of, and thus I haven't read it. The other is time: I did my naval combat system up about 15 years ago, long before Saltmarsh - or 5e, for that matter - was produced.

If-when I ever get my mucky mitts on a copy I'll certainly be interested in seeing what they came up with.

 

[Hussar]

Interesting difference in approach from me, in that my first instinct would be to design and then trial-and-error my own chase rules to bolt on to whatever system I was already using, rather than look for (and then have to learn) an entire new system.

I have one system. That's all I need.

If that system doesn't work for something - which certainly happens - then I will modify and kitbash that part of it until it does work; leaving the rest of it intact.

And, that's fair. OTOH, the kitbash that works for your table, most likely, won't work for mine simply because there are so many other factors. The bigger the kitbash, the less useful it will be to other people. And, that doesn't really counter my point that saying, "Hey, that system doesn't really do that. This system does. Why not use this system instead?"

Then again, I enjoy reading new games for precisely this reason, even if I almost never get to play them. The idea that "one system is all I need" has never been my experience in gaming. When I started playing back in the 80's, it was, "what game are we playing next". We played dozens of games back then.

But, again, this gets back to the idiosyncracies of tables. I mean, @Lanefan, you're pretty famous for running decade long campaigns. So, yeah, obviously pointing to a new system isn't really going to help you. Me? I run year long campaigns, generally. Maybe 18 month long ones. Heck my current group, at least the three of us who've played together since the early 3e days, have played countless campaigns and a dozen or more systems.

So, getting annoyed when someone says, "Hey, play this game instead" comes as rather a surprise to someone like me who changes games at the drop of a hat. I'm ALWAYS up for playing a new system.

 

[loverdrive]

I don't think that it's an inherently insane idea. It will depend on the beats, flow, and how it's constructed. I could see a Heists, Detective, and Urban Exploration arc work incredibly well in the city of Sharn for Eberron. Not sure about the Teenage Drama arc though, but this is a genre that tends not to even get a whisper in the "D&D can do everything" discussion. But I don't think that being able to do so is somehow unique to D&D. One could, for example, run such a game in Eberron using Savage Worlds, Cortex Prime, or the Cypher System. The main point is that these various arcs would be tonally appropriate for the Eberron setting, which is somewhat orthogonal to whether D&D 5E can do it or not.

Yeah, sure, it makes sense to run these things in the same game world, and it probably would be cool.

I doubt that it's a good idea to try and stitch these things into one campaign, instead of doing four separate campaigns that reference and influence each other.

That way we sidestep problems like "what the hell my character I created for doorkicking is doing in a detective?", not even mentioning the necessity of designing house rules and whatever.

 

[Hussar]

Thing is, Heists, Detective and Urban exploration aren't really too far apart. I mean, you probably expect to do all three when you have a campaign that prominently features any one of those.

It's more when you have Heists, followed by Wilderness Exploration, followed by Castle Building and Domain Management, and ending with Survival Horror, that maybe, just maybe, it might be an idea to start looking at new, broader systems.

 

[Lanefan]

But there's another thing worth questioning. Is running a long-long damn campaign, longer than Long Dick Johnson's, with a HEISTS arc, then DETECTIVE arc, then URBAN EXPLORATION arc, then, idk, TEENAGE DRAMA arc actually a good or sane idea?

Sane? Probably not...says he, in process of doing just this.

Good? Ask me when my campaign's finished. It's 13 years in at the moment and still going; and within it at different times there's been heist sequences, urban exploration sequences, teenage-like drama sequences, and all kinds of others.

Can't say I've had anything really approaching a whodunnit detective sequence yet. There's been some good spy-and-espionage bits, but more James Bond than Sherlock Holmes in tone.

 

[Aldarc]

Yeah, sure, it makes sense to run these things in the same game world, and it probably would be cool.

I doubt that it's a good idea to try and stitch these things into one campaign, instead of doing four separate campaigns that reference and influence each other.

That way we sidestep problems like "what the hell my character I created for doorkicking is doing in a detective?", not even mentioning the necessity of designing house rules and whatever.

Well, no. You don't create a character for door-kicking. You create a character for being able to cast 9th level spells in plate while using your casting stat as your melee fighting stat for some dungeon-crawl mayhem where the right answer for every problem presented are the multitude of buttons that have been designed to do one thing: MURDER. That's the character who is being asked to be in a detective scenario.

 

[Hussar]

Dude. Look, whatever I said that made you feel like this, I’m sorry. I have, however, at no point said that 5e can do everything, or that any failure is the DMs fault.
I literally explicitly said to you...today, that it isn’t.

Some variation of “I tried this in D&D and it never worked for me, for these reasons.” Is useful and great. Even if the DM is undeterred, they’ve gained insight into what to look out for.

So, when someone says, Hey, instead of trying to use 5e for this, try, Game XYZ, that's offensive and bad.

But, if someone says, "Hey, I tried to do that. It didn't work for me. Try game XYZ" that's perfectly fine?

IOW, you insist that people somehow "prove" their experience to you. They can't just say, "Hey, play BitD" but, they have to be somehow qualified to make that suggestion? I mean, I went through EXTENSIVELY why the naval campaign rules in 5e don't work. You completely ignored it, to nitpick minor details in another post about low magic campaigns, where your advice amounts to, "Don't try another system, but, rather, hope that you can find stuff on DM's Guild that will work". Because that's so different.

Not only do you ignore my point, but, you expressly asked Lanefan why he found lacking in the GoS naval rules.

Basically, this is just an exercise in self congratulations. You want all of us to give you a nice hearty pat on the head for telling off all those nasty folks that actually try other systems and have the temerity to suggest that they might be a better solution for you.

 

[loverdrive]

Thing is, Heists, Detective and Urban exploration aren't really too far apart. I mean, you probably expect to do all three when you have a campaign that prominently features any one of those.

It's more when you have Heists, followed by Wilderness Exploration, followed by Castle Building and Domain Management, and ending with Survival Horror, that maybe, just maybe, it might be an idea to start looking at new, broader systems.

Yeah, I'll clarify my examples a bit.