D&D General D&D doesn't need Evil

[Malmuria]

Yep, I know I've mentioned this a few times across a few threads perhaps (or maybe it just is this one) but if there is a cosmic Evil, and Evil is truly only the nasty stuff that (most) anyone can objectively say is bad for the general person to either engage in, or promote, then to thwart or kill an Evil entity, will (most) always be an act that is justified, and it removes agency in a way.

I was thinking of a possible poll, but I'm not sure if its too many variables to get any meaningful data, regarding Alignment as a Cosmic Force, Evil Gods, and (or course) PC options and how they all interact.

The Great Wheel for example, exists on the basis that Alignment is a Cosmic Force. The Planes are based upon it being such, OR the Gods created the Planes to mirror it, OR the Gods themselves are bound by this Alignment as Cosmic Force (AaCF). Depending on how one belives those things to exist, it then trickles in the Prime Material, and thats where we sit now.

Is AaCF a real thing which impacts the Prime Material?
Are the Gods a real thing which impact the Prime Material directly?
Are the beings of the Prime Material AWARE of both of those things and created by them?

If building out a custom setting cosmology I cant think of a more foundational set of questions which will then inform how you use Alignment (and Gods, and Races) throughout the rest of the setting, assuming you wish to touch on those area's at all.

I would also say it's hard to make cosmic Neutrality interesting and stand on its own as a force. In fact, if there is cosmic Evil, neutrality in practice is itself sort of evil. It's why they named the 2e planescape boxed set "Planes of Conflict," because "Planes of Neutrality," doesn't really have a same ring to it. FWIW, I do think Law and Chaos as cosmic forces is potentially more interesting. Like, let's say the blood war has spilled over onto your material plane. If you are good aligned, do you...get involved? Let them destroy each other? Work on protecting bystanders? Side with one group and then the other?

 

[Scribe]

The Blood War, and creation story/history of the Lower Planes is quite literally some of my favorite stuff to think about.

I would agree that the Neutral is different, and Planes of Conflict work better as a place where opposing forces on the Law/Chaos and Good/Evil duality come into direct contact.

 

[Faolyn]

Good vs evil, heroes vs villains sells better than moral gray or anti-heroes because it feeds into a core desire of people everywhere to be the hero in their own life story. I think the game is better off with that flavor of the PCs being the good guys. It's why most public mods are save the world, or at least save the region.

Lucky for you, you can ignore it all you want since it's no longer core to the game and has no mechanical impact.

Better for you, perhaps. Not better for everyone. My players like being the heroes, but they don't require pure villains to do so.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

D&D needs evil. And good! What it doesn't need are Neutral middle-of-the-roaders and fair weather acquaintances! Signed, Robilar, Lawful Evil since 1973, so there!

 

[Oofta]

Better for you, perhaps. Not better for everyone. My players like being the heroes, but they don't require pure villains to do so.

Umm ... okay? I've said multiple times that good vs evil being the default is good for the game but you don't have to play it that way. The flexibility of the game to accommodate multiple styles is IMHO one of it's biggest strengths.

So ... good for you I guess? There is no one true way.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

There is no one true way.

Blasphemy! You will immediately report to the Department of Redundancy Department for you (or it is me?) have been made redundant!

 

[FrozenNorth]

Such as? Not that I'm questioning, I really don't know. I agree that the detect/protect against evil and good is at best misworded because that's not what they do any more. But beyond that? Not sure I see it. Of course I also don't use or read published mods very often either so I could be missing it.

Nothing I an aware of currently (although, maybe Ravenloft?). They would definitely have to curate spells if they adapt Dark Sun.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Did you read the OP? Unless I missed something it's very definitely "We don't need good vs evil, heroes vs villains"

Let me clarify:

I think the stories that D&D tells: hero vs villain, treasure hunts, dungeon crawls, epic destinies... don't need Objective Evil. That's not to say the word "evil" isn't going to be thrown around! But because I think evil should be an entirely subjective term, I believe "evil" should be left to the beings of the setting to decide, not the rules.

So for example, you have a classic campaign of the Heroes of the Realm helping fight off an invasion of Hobgoblins, Goblins, and Worgs. To me, labeling the invading force as Evil isn't needed, since you can instead say they are, say, Bloodthirsty Warriors Driven by a Dogmatic Leader. Or... Warriors of an Empire Seeking New Territory. Or so on and so forth.

After all, do you really think a Hobgoblin considers itself to be Evil?

Absolutely nothing changes about the story by removing the idea that the Hobgoblin forces are, by the rules, Evil. The townsfolk they are invading and slaughtering definitely consider them evil!

But I think D&D operates just fine, and in fact better, when Objective Evil is taken out of the rules.

 

[payn]

What if you like both adversarial NPCs and evil aligned NPCs? The types that perform evil rituals with dark magic and pray to evil deities as part of their identity. Disrupting these forces is a great feeling for the PCs, and combined with ordinary foes makes a great contrast within a campaign.

 

[BookTenTiger]

What if you like both adversarial NPCs and evil aligned NPCs? The types that perform evil rituals with dark magic and pray to evil deities as part of their identity. Disrupting these forces is a great feeling for the PCs, and combined with ordinary foes makes a great contrast within a campaign.

Why are the rituals evil? What makes the magic dark? What defines the deities as evil?

I think it's likely that these adversarial NPCs have an objective that's met by praying to these gods, and are willing to make whatever sacrifices are needed in order to gain their power. They are powerhungry, cruel, and fanatical, which makes them great opponents and evil in the eyes of most people they encounter.

But the label of evil should come from the setting, not the rules. They are considered evil because they are doing things frowned upon by society for selfish purposes. I don't think the rules should be the ones telling me they are evil.

What do you think?