[D&D history/development] I wonder why...

[Mouseferatu]

So have you ever begun to think of an aspect of D&D, something you've always accepted without question, and suddenly wondered why it is the way it is?

(I'm talking about historical aspects, flavor, and design, not so much rules mechanics.)

For instance, my current question...

Why is Tiamat lawful? More chromatic dragons are chaotic than lawful. The most powerful chromatic dragon (red) is lawful. Dragons in legend and literature seem to lean more toward the chaotic/savage than the lawful/scheming, though they're certainly capable of the latter. So why is Tiamat considered lawful evil? It's something I've always known, but only now begun to question.

So what do you think? Any theories on Tiamat? (Or anyone heard Gary comment on the issue at any point in the past?) And what are your own "Wait a minute..." moments?

 

[MerricB]

So have you ever begun to think of an aspect of D&D, something you've always accepted without question, and suddenly wondered why it is the way it is?

(I'm talking about historical aspects, flavor, and design, not so much rules mechanics.)

For instance, my current question...

Why is Tiamat lawful? More chromatic dragons are chaotic than lawful. The most powerful chromatic dragon (red) is lawful. Dragons in legend and literature seem to lean more toward the chaotic/savage than the lawful/scheming, though they're certainly capable of the latter. So why is Tiamat considered lawful evil? It's something I've always known, but only now begun to question.

So what do you think? Any theories on Tiamat? (Or anyone heard Gary comment on the issue at any point in the past?) And what are your own "Wait a minute..." moments?

Well, she was originally Chaotic. (And lived somewhere in the bowels of the earth, not on another plane, according to the original D&D supplements... I much prefer that interpretation, I must say!)

But that was long ago...

More to the point: to be a Queen, one really needs to be Lawful.

Oddly enough, in Babylonian mythology (as according to wikipedia), she's the embodiment of Chaos (and not really a dragon, either). See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

When in the height heaven was not named,
And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both
Their waters were mingled together,
And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;
When of the gods none had been called into being,
And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained;
Then were created the gods in the midst of heaven,
Lahmu and Lahamu were called into being...
Ages increased,...
Then Ansar and Kisar were created, and over them....
Long were the days, then there came forth.....
Anu, their son,...
Ansar and Anu...
And the god Anu...
Nudimmud, whom his fathers, his begetters.....
Abounding in all wisdom,...'
He was exceeding strong...
He had no rival -
Thus were established and were... the great gods.
But Tiamat and Apsu were still in confusion...
They were troubled and...
In disorder...
Apru was not diminished in might...
And Tiamat roared...
She smote, and their deeds...
Their way was evil...

Cheers!

 

[Mouseferatu]

Well, she was originally Chaotic. (And lived somewhere in the bowels of the earth, not on another plane, according to the original D&D supplements... I much prefer that interpretation, I must say!)

But that was long ago...

But wasn't that back in the days of three alignments only, where "lawful" = "good" and "chaotic" = "evil"? Has she ever been "chaotic evil"?

More to the point: to be a Queen, one really needs to be Lawful.

No, not really. It's entirely possible to have a chaotic ruler. But you knew that.

 

[MerricB]

But wasn't that back in the days of three alignments only, where "lawful" = "good" and "chaotic" = "evil"? Has she ever been "chaotic evil"?

Indeed it was. I don't think she's ever been CE... unless in those odd days when the alignment system was just getting to the form it is in now. Must check Holmes Basic and early Dragon articles...

No, not really. It's entirely possible to have a chaotic ruler. But you knew that.

(Queenie from Blackadder?)

Cheers!

 

[shilsen]

And what are your own "Wait a minute..." moments?

I've always wondered idly about some of the uses of monsters from existing mythology and folklore, though I've never had a problem with it because I don't expect my D&D to mirror anything from the real world.

For example, the fact that D&D has medusas (originally a single one of the three gorgons in Greek myth) as a species and also has gorgons as a species of metal bull which breathes petrifying gas.

 

[Mouseferatu]

For example, the fact that D&D has medusas (originally a single one of the three gorgons in Greek myth) as a species and also has gorgons as a species of metal bull which breathes petrifying gas.

That exact example bothers me, too. I've since learned that Gary Gygax got the "gorgon = metal bull creature" from some medieval bestiary, and chose to incorporate it into the game as such. I'd still rather he'd gone with the "bull-gorgon's" alternate name, though, and kept "gorgon" for the snake-hidden woman.

And the bull-gorgon's alternate name, in medieval myth? Catoblepas.

 

[Glyfair]

Indeed it was. I don't think she's ever been CE... unless in those odd days when the alignment system was just getting to the form it is in now. Must check Holmes Basic and early Dragon articles...

The next to last issue of the Strategic Review (Fec '76) has the article "The Meaning of Law and Chaos in Dungeons & Dragons and Their Relationships to Good & Evil" by Gary. It has what is probably the first 2 axis alignment chart. It is the earliest reference I can see to Tiamat being LE.

It graphs the location of various creatures on the second chart. "Chromatic Dragons" are the creatures furthest to the LE corner (which the previous chart notes as "Devil/Hell" compared to "Elysium/Godling" for CG and "Heaven/Saint" for LG. The next closest to LE is the vampire.

Note that this is certainly Tiamat. White, Blue, Black & Red Dragons are on the chart separately. Also, the furthest upper right corner has "platinum dragons."

I guess it was to set her (them?) opposed to Bahamut. Also, maybe at that point she was already the guardian of Hell.

Anyone have a reference earlier than '76?

* As a bit of trivia, these are the creatures set furthest in the 4 alignment positions. LG - Gold Dragon, CG - Platinum Dragons, LE - Chromatic Dragons, CE - Red Dragons.

 

[Imruphel]

I agree on the issue of Tiamat's alignment which is why in my FR games I have her as an imposter power trying to convince Faerun that she is the deity responsible for evil dragons.

The one that I have never understood is why tanar'ri are immune to electricity. A corollary of that is why the balor is shrouded with fire (and was only made immune to fire in 3.5E) when it is supposed to lead the tanar'ri against the baatezu which are immune to fire but have no immunity or resistance to electricity. Perhaps a balor should be a living electrical storm instead?

Similarly, why are ice devils barely resistant to cold but immune to fire?

How do nightmares live at all when their legs end in flaming hooves and they have no resistance to fire?

 

[Glyfair]

That exact example bothers me, too. I've since learned that Gary Gygax got the "gorgon = metal bull creature" from some medieval bestiary, and chose to incorporate it into the game as such. I'd still rather he'd gone with the "bull-gorgon's" alternate name, though, and kept "gorgon" for the snake-hidden woman.

And the bull-gorgon's alternate name, in medieval myth? Catoblepas.

I'm not so sure that medieval myth was consistent enough to even have a primary and alternate name. I've seen a few books that delved into their with some odd variations on creatures we know as something else. The "orc" is a boar/pig headed sea serpent in this book, in fact.

 

[grodog]

I'm with Merric: Tiamat's CE in my game