D&D is Back!

[Donovan Morningfire]

I'll say this in so far as 4e vs 3.x

It took a long time for me to actually have fun playing a 3.x game, and that wasn't until the much-lauded/loathed Book of 9 Swords, which actually gave fighter-types viable combat options outside of charge and full-round attacks.

I've played 4e a total of 3 times now (1 demo-type scenario shortly after D&DXP earlier in the year) and twice today, and I've had a blast each time from the word go. Same can't be said for 3.x, as it got to the point I really didn't care about D&D anymore, with Bo9S being the book that drew me back into the fold, although to be fair SW Saga Edition played a role as well.

Some of us gamers have either been around long enough that we don't really want a rules-heavy system anymore or just simply don't have the excess of time to plan out character advancement or gods forbid design battle encounters for an adventure. Frell, I watched a kid (no more than 16 tops) sit down with a PHB, crack open the book, and build a Half-Elf Warlock... in about 10 minutes, with his only other 4e experience having been to play in the Game Day module. Build a characer that fast for a relative noob in 3.x? Not so much.

The combats in 4e were fast and fluid, with no rules hedging on the GM's part in any scenario (did help that both Gameday GMs had been playtesting 4e for a while). Quite simply, it was fun and everybody had something to do. Only once was a rulebook cracked to check on how a part of the rules worked (effects of being prone). I've never seen a 3.x game run where the DM didn't break open either their copy of the PHB or DMG to check-up on some rules bit.

I think it feels like 1e because the attitude in the books is alot more freewheeling, so to speak. In 3e if you wanted to houserule something, you needed to make sure that the whole system didn't collapse. Having just been reading the new DMG, I get the distinct impression that it's very much the opposite. It seems to encourage alot of "fudging it". Need a particular monster? Just change a few numbers to whatever you feel is needed and change it's name and description and you're good to go. I really like that.

I think that sums it up nicely.

 

[Wolfspider]

In 3e if you wanted to houserule something, you needed to make sure that the whole system didn't collapse.

Huh. Really?

I just make it up as i go along and don't stress too much about it.

 

[evildm]

Huh. Really?

I just make it up as i go along and don't stress too much about it.

I probably should have worded it a bit better, sorry. What I meant was that in the books in 3e it seemed to try to dissuade you from houseruling by warning you about possible implications.

That's good that you had good results from making it up as you went along. I used to do that alot in my 2e days. I ran everything from the seat of my pants and never prepped anything at all. That seemed to lessen in the 3e days, I find. I became worried about encounter difficulty and it became harder to eyeball it and make adjustments on the fly.

I guess there seemed to be more of an emphasis on sticking to the rules as written in 3e compared to other editions and deviation from that might have unpleasant results, at least in regards to how the rules were written. And so it made DMs feel like they had less opportunity or freedom to do things on the fly.

 

[Invisible Stalker]

I've played a couple of short demos in the last two days, once as a player and as a DM, and it really does feel like 1E out of the box. Less prep time needed for the DM, new players up and ready to go in vastly less time and combats that are quicker. I'm also enjoying the more team oriented parts of the game. It's different from 1E of course, and it's early days yet, but 4E has made a good first impression on me.

 

[Lanefan]

I've played a couple of short demos in the last two days, once as a player and as a DM, and it really does feel like 1E out of the box. Less prep time needed for the DM, new players up and ready to go in vastly less time and combats that are quicker. I'm also enjoying the more team oriented parts of the game. It's different from 1E of course, and it's early days yet, but 4E has made a good first impression on me.

Keep in mind 3e made a pretty good first impression on many people as well...before three things happened: higher levels, a mid-stream revision called 3.5e, and rules bloat.

4e hasn't had to worry about any of those...yet.

Question for those who have done it: in comparison to both 1e and 3e, how long does it take to generate a 1st-level character in 4e (for equality, let's assume you're rolling the stats for the 4e character).

Lanefan

 

[Nellisir]

...for the first time the monsters look like alot fun beyond just their flavor text.

And thank goodness for that! I mean, can you imagine if the guulvorg (it's under "Worg") was -less- fun than its flavor text?



I've skimmed the 4e books, and while I'm getting less interested in running a campaign with 4e, I'm getting more interested in examining the concepts and theories behind it. I've a hunch that alot of them can be translated to 3e without notably affecting play (ie, monster design).

 

[SpiderMonkey]

And thank goodness for that! I mean, can you imagine if the guulvorg (it's under "Worg") was -less- fun than its flavor text?



I've skimmed the 4e books, and while I'm getting less interested in running a campaign with 4e, I'm getting more interested in examining the concepts and theories behind it. I've a hunch that alot of them can be translated to 3e without notably affecting play (ie, monster design).

I think you make a really good point here. I'm a total 4on, but even if I weren't switching, I'd be really excited for a new source of house rules. In fact, a DM I'm playing with is sticking with 3.5 but stealing pretty liberally from 4. I just don't understand all of the doomsaying.

And furthermore, Amazon should be destroyed.

 

[Campbell]

Keep in mind 3e made a pretty good first impression on many people as well...before three things happened: higher levels, a mid-stream revision called 3.5e, and rules bloat.

4e hasn't had to worry about any of those...yet.

Question for those who have done it: in comparison to both 1e and 3e, how long does it take to generate a 1st-level character in 4e (for equality, let's assume you're rolling the stats for the 4e character).

Lanefan

I can't really answer for 1e or 2e core, but in my experience creating any first level character takes about the same time as a 3e fighter or rogue (if you don't fuss over skill points too much), slightly more time than a 3e paladin, and significantly less time than a 3e full caster (clerics and druids included if you factor in initial spell prep).

 

[Thunderfoot]

Thunder, it's not that I feel 4e = 1e. It's a new edition of the game, so there will be changes.

I'm saying that for me, 4e seems like they took the great ideas they had in 3e about improving game play and refined them so they "feel" a lot more like the D&D I know(spent the most time with) and work a lot quicker/ are more open.

It's the fact that I can sit down as a DM and hash out a "cool" adventure without having to worry about whether or not I carried the 1, yet still know that the system is done well enough that I don't have to worry about the system getting clanked.

It's the 3e idea that here are certain things (like skills) that players should be able to do, and improve at doing, with the earlier idea that I still shouldn't have to spend a lot of time accounting for ALL the nitty gritty elements of the task.

It's the 3e idea that players should have options and neat tricks they can mess with, but mixed with the earlier edition idea that there are some things monsters/enemies can just do... Because it makes a good fight/story.

For the first time in a WHILE I feel like as DM I'm once again in control of the adventure as opposed to on a hunt for the proper design method to achieve the effect I want.

I can agree with that on some level. There is still a lot of little intricacies that I have to work out. On a related note, while my home campaign would (will) suffer at the hands of 4e; I wish the system no ill will and will probably end up running 4e at GenCon under the auspices of my RPGA DMs hat.

As I've posted here and elsewhere, there are some great advances that the new system makes and the more demos I play the more I love low level gaming. I still have some issues about Paragon and Epic, but that's quite some ways off and I'll burn that house down when I get there.

 

[Thunderfoot]

<SNIP>I just don't understand all of the doomsaying.<SNIP>

Its the web, what else did you expect?
Seriously though, we went through the same thing about 8 years ago. I've been playing since 1st edition (1978 is when I started) and even 2nd edition had its doom-sayers, and really the conversions there were as simple as pie. When 3rd first hit I hated it. Feats, AoOs, what was this crap and what had they done with my game I could play in my head without minis?

And there is a lot about 4e that isn't very user friendly if you play a 'traditional' style game (meaning real world physics altered to allow for fantasy and magic ala 1st & 2nd). I had a real hard time adjusting to 3.X and was just starting to get the hang of it, but my book shelf was starting to sag under the weight of all the references in order for me to get it to where I wanted it.

At some point I'll figure out what to tweak and what to drop and then WotC will announce 5th edition and I'll have to do it all over again, and all the 'doom-sayers' from this time around will start to become the aged-veterans such as myself. Of course, fan-boys will always be fan-boys and if 5th edition should be all video based with internal synapses implants that must be updated for a 'low cost' every week or they fry you into a molten glob of goo, there will be some dingle head raving about how 'integrated' it is; regardless of the fact that D&D just became extremely deadly. My point being, that there are fanatics on both sides of the argument and the real trick is trying not to be on either side, but trying to find the soft fleshy center in the middle. If you can live there, life is much easier.