D&D is its own Genre of Fantasy?

[Wulf Ratbane]

I think it's entirely possible to write a book that features all of the tropes of D&D-style fantasy and still end up with an enjoyable read.

The "tropes" of D&D are incompatible with the conventions of classical narrative on multiple counts.

My definition of "enjoyable read" starts with the conventions of classical narrative. It's conventional and classical because, well, that's how human beings have related to storytelling since we first turned our hand to it.

 

[Chiaroscuro23]

Ron Edwards talks a bit about D&D as a genre of Fantasy in his articles on the history of D&D http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/20/, Fantasy Heartbreakers http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/, and More Fantasy Heartbreakers http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/10/. (Sorry, I can't figure out how to do links on ENworld quickly, so I've given up.) All have the trouble that Edwards' writing normally has, and presume some familiarity with Forge terminology and the (questionable) GNS theory, which is a problem, but it's clear he's using the term to mean a new style of fantasy contrasted with that found in the pulps and novels of the early 70s and before. EDIT: though, amusingly, the quote I grabbed is more about genre of gameplay than genre of book, which Edwards complains about elsewhere: the idea being that clearly D&D-derived bookstore-books like Where Dragons Lie or the Belgariad are different in kind to, say, old-style Lieber or Howard.

A Fantasy Heartbreaker's basic, imaginative content is "fantasy" using gaming, specifically D&D, as the inspirational text. What's D&D Fantasy? Well, it's about seting up a character starting-point with a strong random component as well as a strong strategy component, having encounters, surviving them (or not), and improving. What characters do is travel, team up, bicker a bit, walk a tightrope between cooperating and exploiting one another, suss out threats (risk assessment is a big deal), and fight with unavoidable or especially rewarding ones. Some giveaway details: gotta have elves and dwarves, gotta have underground complexes, gotta have teams of adventurers, gotta have array of tactical possibilites for combat (armor/weapons), gotta have similar array of spells, gotta ramp up the range and scope of both arrays with "experience," and gotta have a chock-full smorgasbord of threats.

(I want to emphasize that terms like "Tolkien fantasy," "traditional fantasy," and "high fantasy" are often used to refer to D&D fantasy, all of which I think are highly inaccurate and obfuscating.)

 

[Chiaroscuro23]

The "tropes" of D&D are incompatible with the conventions of classical narrative on multiple counts.

My definition of "enjoyable read" starts with the conventions of classical narrative. It's conventional and classical because, well, that's how human beings have related to storytelling since we first turned our hand to it.

I'm not following you on this. There are a bunch of successful and well-known novels which clearly draw on D&D tropes like races, classes, diverse parties going on quests and the like. Are you excluding them from "conventional narrative" for some reason?

 

[buzz]

The "tropes" of D&D are incompatible with the conventions of classical narrative on multiple counts.

I'm kind of with Chiaroscuro23, here. Though it may depend on what we define as the tropes. F'rinstance...

A team of adventurers, each with a special career niche, are faced with a mission that involves entering a hostile area and battling a variety of dangerous creatures. They are armed with tool-magic that, along the way, gets enhanced as they acquire better and stronger tool-magic items. They also improve their skills as the mission progresses. Eventually, they face a final challenge that is the culmination of the mission. Some of the heroes may die along the way, replaced by other heroes. Now throw in some Vancian magic, polytheism, moral absolutism, and diverse racial demographics... and you're good to go.

I mean, isn't this basically Star Wars?

I don't see anything in here that demands the end product suck. Granted, it may not be a recipe for anything original, but you never know what a talented writer can do.

Of course, I'd probably agree that there's not much precedent for such a recipe not sucking...

 

[Raven Crowking]

I mean, isn't this basically Star Wars?

I don't see anything in here that demands the end product suck.

What about the prequels?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm not following you on this.

Apparently we have a different understanding of the conventions of both D&D and classical narrative.

Different races and classes, heroes heading out for adventure-- these are not the conventions of D&D being discussed here. Those are the conventions that D&D has successfully borrowed from story. Of course they work.

Try to work backwards from the unique game conventions of D&D and you will run into trouble. Multiple, equal protagonists = trouble. Characters who are fully invested in the story, suddenly disappearing = trouble. Replacing those characters = trouble.

Go back and read Arbiter's post again. He hit the high points. I don't really have the time (nor do I suspect that most people would appreciate) a more in-depth "lecture."

 

[tzor]

I can't recall a genre of fantasy other than D&D where "Scry-Buff-Teleport" was the solution to 90% of the problems presented.

That sounds like a typical Power Rangers Scenario, only I'm hard pressed to think of what genre that belongs in.

But seriously, you can't fit "D&D" into a genre or even its own genre because a genre is depenent on the scenario used in D&D. Rules and even tactics are not a property of a genre. Scry-Buff-Teleport, for example, could be equally possible with high fantasy as with high level sci fi.

 

[buzz]

Multiple, equal protagonists = trouble.

Star Trek, Star Wars, Firefly, Law & Order, Buffy, Angel, Gilligan's Island, Friends, The Lord of the Rings, Battlestar Galacitca, X-Men, and everything else that's ever had an ensemble cast.

Characters who are fully invested in the story, suddenly disappearing = trouble.

Buffy and Angel have done this, to a certain extent.

Replacing those characters = trouble.

Can't argue with this.

I get what you and Arbiter of Wyrms are saying. I just think there's room for non-suckage. I definitely agree that blow-by-blow accounts of D&D sessions don't make for good reading. Heretic though it may make me, that's why I'm not really a big fan of most Story Hours. I prefer Actual Play reports.

 

[buzz]

But seriously, you can't fit "D&D" into a genre or even its own genre because a genre is depenent on the scenario used in D&D.

Only if you're using your D&D rulebooks to run Traveller. D&D is fantasy (whether you believe in "D&D-style" or not), and the scenario won't change that.

 

[The_Gneech]

Actually, the movie "Krull" always struck me as an attempt to do a movie version of a D&D game -- right down to a couple of characters getting randomly killed by a spike trap out of nowhere.

It was not a very good movie, alas. Although it had its moments.

-The Gneech