D&D is not a supers game.

[IanB]

Claiming minions shouldn't be regarded in the discussion is saying as conscious design choice in how PC's interact with monsters (that doesn't exist in previous editions) should be ignored... I don't believe that, I believe a level 1 minion has been put in 4e specifically to be one-shoted by a PC and thus adds to the "superhero" like feeling the game invokes compared to previous edtions. YMMV and all that of course.

But prior editions have those same monsters - witness those 1 hit point rats and 1/2 hit die kobolds that fighters can 'sweep' through in 1e. 4e just codified them mechanically.

 

[Imaro]

Of course they were designed to be one-shotted, that's explicit in their design. It was done so that DMs could use a large number of monsters in an encounter and not lose his mind trying to their individual hit points. Minions are a DM aid, not a character super-heroifier.

I disagree... all over the internet, numerous 4e fans have made the claim that minions are there to make the PC's look bad ass. I honestly find it hard to believe that you haven't seen this sentiment expressed by numerous DM's who run the game... especially in the various comparisons they make between minions and action movie mooks. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I, and apparently many proponents of 4e, actually do think they are a mechanic designed to create a feeling of "super-heroics" when it comes to 4e PC's.

 

[Imaro]

But prior editions have those same monsters - witness those 1 hit point rats and 1/2 hit die kobolds that fighters can 'sweep' through in 1e. 4e just codified them mechanically.

Yep I agree, upon further reflection minions can exist in previous editions though in the case of previous editions minions were not specifically codified and were instead the result of chance... the interesting thing is that we don't exclude a monster from being that monster in other editions because random chance gave him a single hit point... In previous editions a goblin (warrior) is still a goblin (warrior), even if he has 1 hit point... so if minions exsist in the case of previous editions (except in so far as them being specifically called out) why are minions a seperate case in 4e?

 

[Obryn]

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I, and apparently many proponents of 4e, actually do think they are a mechanic designed to create a feeling of "super-heroics" when it comes to 4e PC's.

I just see them as another interesting tactical element.

They're just a way to use low-level foes against higher-level PCs while still presenting a reasonable challenge. Recently, I used them for a raiding tribe of Silt Stalker elves.

I also tend to kill PCs with minions. I dunno; they can get pretty deadly, used properly.

Does it really matter how someone feels when they drop one? I mean, what's the purpose of this argument?

-O

 

[herrozerro]

Yep I agree, upon further reflection minions can exist in previous editions though in the case of previous editions minions were not specifically codified and were instead the result of chance... the interesting thing is that we don't exclude a monster from being that monster in other editions because random chance gave him a single hit point... In previous editions a goblin (warrior) is still a goblin (warrior), even if he has 1 hit point... so if minions exsist in the case of previous editions (except in so far as them being specifically called out) why are minions a seperate case in 4e?

Because 4e codified the combat encounter and the base monster math. A minion is approximately worth 4-5 standard monsters, an an elite is worth 2-3 standards and a solo 5-6 standard monsters.

Monsters were broken away from the pc generation rules and given their own math.

 

[herrozerro]

I disagree... all over the internet, numerous 4e fans have made the claim that minions are there to make the PC's look bad ass. I honestly find it hard to believe that you haven't seen this sentiment expressed by numerous DM's who run the game... especially in the various comparisons they make between minions and action movie mooks. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I, and apparently many proponents of 4e, actually do think they are a mechanic designed to create a feeling of "super-heroics" when it comes to 4e PC's.

Here is the thing though, using the term super heroics is quite misleading, super heroes are a bit of a genera flavor difference from action stars.

While both are much bigger than life, super heroes are usually imo in the epic scale of things rather than the normal heroic scale.

James bond, Indiana jones, John mclane, rambo or aragorn are quite different than superman, green lantern, batman or wolverine.

 

[Imaro]

I just see them as another interesting tactical element.

They're just a way to use low-level foes against higher-level PCs while still presenting a reasonable challenge. Recently, I used them for a raiding tribe of Silt Stalker elves.

I also tend to kill PCs with minions. I dunno; they can get pretty deadly, used properly.

Does it really matter how someone feels when they drop one? I mean, what's the purpose of this argument?

-O

The purpose was discussing why a few/some/many people who have played 4e feel that it, in comparison to previous editions, feels more like a super hero game. I've stated this a few times in the thread. While a slight tangent to the OP's thread, it still touches on the basic premise and could lead to a better understanding of what mechanics give that type of feel... and yes it does matter how someone feels when they drop someone since that's the point.

 

[Imaro]

Here is the thing though, using the term super heroics is quite misleading, super heroes are a bit of a genera flavor difference from action stars.

While both are much bigger than life, super heroes are usually imo in the epic scale of things rather than the normal heroic scale.

James bond, Indiana jones, John mclane, rambo or aragorn are quite different than superman, green lantern, batman or wolverine.

Yes, but IMO, many of the conventions, especially when it comes to more grounded super heroes like Batman, Green Arrow, Punisher, Deathstroke, etc. are the same. In fact I would say the combat in 4e is more similar, IMO, to a Batman or Punisher comic book brawl than it is to most of the fight scenes in Die Hard or Indiana Jones. Though again, I feel they are ver similar in scale.

EDIT: Also the fact that as you rise in level you (in all editions) end up more similar to Superman or Martian Manhunter than any action hero (except maybe a wuxia warrior) tends to, IMO, reinforce the superhero meme with more powerful lower level heroes.

 

[Imaro]

Because 4e codified the combat encounter and the base monster math. A minion is approximately worth 4-5 standard monsters, an an elite is worth 2-3 standards and a solo 5-6 standard monsters.

Monsters were broken away from the pc generation rules and given their own math.

I understand this, what I'm saying is we aren't disregarding 1 hp monsters in other editions when comparing... so why do we exclude them in 4e because they've been purposefully siloed? In every edition you had the possibility of fighting a standard 1 hit monster... but in 4e they don't count for some reason... I'm not understanding why. And PC generation rules have nothing to do with it when you look at earlier editions like AD&D and BECMI... it's based on randomness.

 

[Sunseeker]

I disagree... all over the internet, numerous 4e fans have made the claim that minions are there to make the PC's look bad ass. I honestly find it hard to believe that you haven't seen this sentiment expressed by numerous DM's who run the game... especially in the various comparisons they make between minions and action movie mooks. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I, and apparently many proponents of 4e, actually do think they are a mechanic designed to create a feeling of "super-heroics" when it comes to 4e PC's.

As a 4e player and current DM, I find minions useful for all sorts of things. They make for great additions to boss battles, especially as summoned creatures that are supposed to harass the players. They're great for representing general townfolk to aid in giving populated areas some life without having to stat out Joe the Plumber. I use them a lot to represent "swarms" of medium creatures, such as an angry mob or fanatical cultists. There are a lot of creative uses for minions, and to be honest until I read you post I never even considered using them to make players feel awesome. But maybe that is be wise I don't have those kinda of players.

Once again, its important to remember that even the loud fans on the internet, even this post are merely anecdotal. There's really no way to get empirical evidence one way or the other, but perhaps the versatility of minions is something 5e should endevor to maintain. Some folks can use minions rules to feel awesome, others can use them more as I do above.