D&D-ism you would sacrifice?

[Bluenose]

There'd be some knock-on effects to consider if you did this.

You'd have to rethink how (or even if) the gods would play into the game. Right now, Clerics are a fine conduit to allow deities to mess with things if so desired. Remove Clerics and that goes away. Some might like this. Others might not. Either way, it's a significant change.

Also, at all levels Clerics do something else very well beside just healing, and that's divination: Portent, Augury, Divination, Commune, etc. Where does that go?

ALast but not least: who brings back the dead, or sends them on their way; and who deals with undead?

Lan-"the main problem with Clerics is they are like the bass: easy to play, but astonishingly difficult to play well"-efan

Presumably people would still worship the gods, but it wouldn't just be the clerics that got some benefit from it. If you know the correct rituals, make the correct sacrifices, act the right way, then the god you're speaking to gives you the benefit you're asking for. Very legalistic, most ancient pantheons, in that respect. And if you want your god to pay attention to you, act the way they would and perhaps they'll talk to you in your dreams.

 

[Shades of Green]

I can quite comfortably live without demihuman races - and even all or most humanoid foes (except for degenerate Humans, that is) - and stick just to Humans. Sword & Sorcery for the Win!

 

[Doug McCrae]

Also, at all levels Clerics do something else very well beside just healing, and that's divination: Portent, Augury, Divination, Commune, etc. Where does that go?

In pre-4e D&D that would go to the wizard. Or, even better, the sorcerer, who killed the wizard and didn't take his stuff.

Last but not least: who brings back the dead, or sends them on their way; and who deals with undead?

If raise dead is felt to be a necessary part of the game it can go to the sorcerer, and there could be a spell to turn undead. Healing also becomes a sorcerer spell. This might seem to make the sorcerer OP, but if anything it has the reverse effect as healing is often regarded as a chore. Many groups in pre-4e D&D had an NPC cleric, now that job would be done by an NPC healer specialist sorcerer.

Another option, as Delericho suggests, is everyone does their own healing. Alternatively, to preserve more of a sense of verisimilitude, have one adventure a year, Pendragon style. PCs adventure in the spring-summer and spend the rest of the year recovering from wounds.

Pushing all the cleric magic on to the wizard/sorcerer also solves the problem of specialist-priests and druids - they are sorcerers with a particular set of spells known. A sorcerer-priest of Thor might have battle, strength and weather-related spells such as lightning bolt and bull's strength. A druid is a sorcerer with speak with animals, polymorph self and entangle. Etc.

Really the problem with the cleric stems from the fact that D&D's classes have never been quite right. Fighting man and magic user made sense, the cleric not so much. He's a fighter/magic-user specialising in defensive magic, with Christian flavor text. True20's classes of 'fight guy', 'magic guy' and 'skill guy' make more sense.

But perhaps this is the HERO-isation of D&D. Too few classes and one starts to think about doing away with them altogether. The other way to go is to split the powers of the OD&D magic user up among many different magical specialists - healers, blasters, diviners, bards, druids - some more suited as NPCs.

 

[Bluenose]

Really the problem with the cleric stems from the fact that D&D's classes have never been quite right. Fighting man and magic user made sense, the cleric not so much. He's a fighter/magic-user specialising in defensive magic, with Christian flavor text. True20's classes of 'fight guy', 'magic guy' and 'skill guy' make more sense.

But perhaps this is the HERO-isation of D&D. Too few classes and one starts to think about doing away with them altogether. The other way to go is to split the powers of the OD&D magic user up among many different magical specialists - healers, blasters, diviners, bards, druids - some more suited as NPCs.

I immensely dislike the 'fight guy' 'skill guy' split. What, you can't be an armoured fighter and able to talk the hind legs off a donkey/remember which fork to use/go hunting for the Questing Beast? If you're smart and/or willing to pay in feats you can have a good range of skills; if not, then you don't, but it doesn't mean anything for how you fight.

And I'd make the spellcasters choose which archetype they're going to follow, whether it's healer, fire mage, shapeshifter, plant magic, necromancy, or whatever. At least get rid of the caster as jack-of-all-trades and master-of-all-trades.

 

[Stormonu]

And I'd make the spellcasters choose which archetype they're going to follow, whether it's healer, fire mage, shapeshifter, plant magic, necromancy, or whatever. At least get rid of the caster as jack-of-all-trades and master-of-all-trades.

Getting rid of the general caster/wizard and requiring specialist wizards (1 primary school, a couple other "lesser" schools and one or more prohibited schools) would be something I think would have toned down the 3E wizard immensely.

Also, to add more flavor to the cleric I think they should have been restricted to domain spells for their normal spellcasting, with one bonus "general" spell per level (the reverse of 3E's system).

 

[Shadeydm]

I immensely dislike the 'fight guy' 'skill guy' split. What, you can't be an armoured fighter and able to talk the hind legs off a donkey/remember which fork to use/go hunting for the Questing Beast? If you're smart and/or willing to pay in feats you can have a good range of skills; if not, then you don't, but it doesn't mean anything for how you fight.

Yes, I wonder if skills wouldn't be better off as some sort of pre packaged templates and you would just pick a skill package during character creation. Then you fighter might choose the gift of gab (or whatever you want to call the social skills package) and be good at diplomacy, bluff or whatever other skill are included in the template. Likewise your wizard might choose the street urchin package and be good at streetwise, stealth and thievery.