D&D General D&D isn't a simulation game, so what is???

[Cadence]

Honestly, in OD&D its not even clear if the player was to generate his own hit points, let alone know their current state. I literally didn't realize until earlier this year that the OD&D book tells the GM to generate character attributes, not the player. I never actually saw this done this way, but who knows how it went elsewhere?

That is a cool fact I did not know. Thank you!

 

[DND_Reborn]

that is to say there's not this "Well its some undefined mix of injury/luck/skill but you can never say how much or which from any given attack."

Actually, this was something I was trying to develop for 5E using the ability scores. The idea was basically this:

Looking at the abstract representations in hit points by many groups we have in 5E: physical durability, mental durability, will to live, and luck. Other abstract factors include: skill and divine favor, among others.

Something like (or similar terms)
STR = stability
DEX = reflexes
CON = stamina (physical durability?)
INT = focus (mental durability?)
WIS = divine favor
CHA = will to live

So, I was thinking your starting hit points where equal to a base equal to 4 (medium-size creature HD type) plus a HD for your class ROLLED, and then you added all your ability modifiers as they represent those abstract factors noted above.

Then, when you level you gain a new HD which represents the skill factor, and add bonus hp depending on your highest ability score.

 

[Hussar]

Heck, even going back to the old Paladium games, you still had things like Parry/Dodge where you could negate attacks by dodging them. And active defence mechanic goes a long way towards imparting information about what is happening in the fiction.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Meh. If you are simulating combat you can add all sorts of granularity. Ultimately though it's just fluff. Fluff that doesn't really matter if you don't want to introduce death spirals.

As noted, that still doesn't mean as any kind of simulation model a big elevating-by-level pool of undefined points is doing anything you couldn't do other ways. A fixed pool of points that was overly injury (and building everything else into either a separate pool of points or to-hit modifiers) doesn't do a death spiral but it also doesn't leave you with no information about what happened other than "someone is iterated closer to death."

 

[Thomas Shey]

That is a cool fact I did not know. Thank you!

Neither did I, until I went back and read the Men and Magic entry about generating attributes because I was trying to remember how the trade-off thing I remembered worked (and I remembered it wrong, as it turned out). Like I said, I never saw any sign that anyone did it that way, but there it was.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Actually, this was something I was trying to develop for 5E using the ability scores. The idea was basically this:

Looking at the abstract representations in hit points by many groups we have in 5E: physical durability, mental durability, will to live, and luck. Other abstract factors include: skill and divine favor, among others.

Something like (or similar terms)
STR = stability
DEX = reflexes
CON = stamina (physical durability?)
INT = focus (mental durability?)
WIS = divine favor
CHA = will to live

So, I was thinking your starting hit points where equal to a base equal to 4 (medium-size creature HD type) plus a HD for your class ROLLED, and then you added all your ability modifiers as they represent those abstract factors noted above.

Then, when you level you gain a new HD which represents the skill factor, and add bonus hp depending on your highest ability score.

The only thing you usually have to watch with that sort of model is to not get coy and have crits go directly to the hits; damage numbers in D&D have traditionally been too high for that to work with that sort of extremely small number.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Heck, even going back to the old Paladium games, you still had things like Parry/Dodge where you could negate attacks by dodging them. And active defence mechanic goes a long way towards imparting information about what is happening in the fiction.

It does, however, add to time overhead, which is why its relatively rarely used (yes, I know the whole BRP family does it, but its also one of those things that gets routinely complained about by people new to it).

 

[DND_Reborn]

The only thing you usually have to watch with that sort of model is to not get coy and have crits go directly to the hits; damage numbers in D&D have traditionally been too high for that to work with that sort of extremely small number.

(bold added)

Did you mean "abilities" instead of "hits"??? or something else?

 

[Krachek]

I don't think that's right. Simulations don't necessarily study or represent real phenomena. You most certainly can simulate things that don't exist.

Good grief, the entire genre of Science Fiction is predicated on the question of what happens when you add X where X is often something that not only doesn't exist, but often can't ever exist. Dune's Spice comes to mind here. Yet writing about a universe where we have a limited substance that allows for instantaneous travel, extends life and can do all sorts of other things is quite possible.

So, no, a simulation doesn't have to be based on anything real. You just need a system which sets initial parameters (which need not be reflected in reality) and then have that system tell you information about what happens once you set things in motion.

Granted, what's a "real phenomenon" does seem to change rather a lot over time.

I agree to everyone!
Indeed DnD made some assumption : all character have hit point, ability score, and many other assumption that influence each other to finally have a fight between a party and a manticore. We can call this a simulation since we can redo it changing variables as we wish.

At what level do we consider that the simulation is good?

The Op state that the simulation of the fight was not good for his taste.
Where the problems come from?
The Manticore hit points, the rules for line of sight, the flying speed, the chase rules? The application of these rules by the DM? Or simply the way the Dm describe how the manticore stay in line of sight of the party?

The capacity to believe in a fantasy fight is a fragile process. There is a lot of things that make the process get off track. Adding more rules or more precise rules may not be a way to help believe the fantasy. I think it is more the tone and the participation of each players that can make the fight believable or not.

 

[Oofta]

As noted, that still doesn't mean as any kind of simulation model a big elevating-by-level pool of undefined points is doing anything you couldn't do other ways. A fixed pool of points that was overly injury (and building everything else into either a separate pool of points or to-hit modifiers) doesn't do a death spiral but it also doesn't leave you with no information about what happened other than "someone is iterated closer to death."

You have information with D&D. Perhaps just not the level of detail you may want. But if there is no death spiral, no consequence to intermediate injury then it's just pure fluff with no inherent meaning.

Superficial description may matter for some, for me it would just slow things down.