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D&D - Mediaval Social, Political & Economical Structure.

S'mon

Legend
The ancient way of looking at the world is that all property belongs collectively to the government, and that the government - in the form of a sovereign - dispences rights, freedoms, and justice to his subordinates according to their need who in turn in his name dispense a portion of these gifts all the way down...

That's how it works here in the UK, yup. :D The government owns everything by right of conquest (by William the Conqueror). The tax system assumes that the government owns all our income, but may deign to let us have some of it back. It does mean most of us don't have to do tax returns though, which is handy. :)
 

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Celebrim

Legend
How would the social and economic relationships arise within the different regions and between one another?

Quite often, they hate each other. They don't call the world blood stained for nothing.

The different social relationships arose according to the particulars of each region's history. I'm not a historical determinist. I believe that the choices people make influence the structure of the society that develops. Certain areas became patriarchal monarchies because it was a partriarchal kingship that consolodated power, which ultimately means that there was someone or someones at some time that made choices that resulted in how things were. Certain areas became matriarchal monarchies because it made sense at the time and place, and they were sustained in this because child birth was relatively less lethal than in the real world (meaning the line of succession was harder to break on the female line than in the real world) and because women could balance the martial power of men with magical power (on the battlefied). In one case, a matriarchy was put into power as a result of a reactionary movement against an oppressive patriarchy. In another part of the continent, a partriarchy swept into power as a result of a reactionary movement against an oppressive matriarchy (government by covens of hags). In one country, an insane king was put down by revolt of leading merchants. The nobles who had seen the way the winds were going and who joined their movement where heralded as heroes and managed to maintain a share of the power in the resulting plutocracy. (Complex power sharing agreements are sort of a fetish of mine.) In another country, a long standing civil war between the warlords who remained after the collapse of a larger empire was ended when they agreed NOT to make one of their number king, but elect an outsider to be the nominal ruler. In a neighboring country, the one remaining institution that people trusted after the empire collapsed was a school of learning that people looked to to resolve civil disputes.

Interesting ideas, although how do these different areas interact with one another? If the people of area G, who are ruled by a god king, are they zealously hateful / pitying of any outsiders?

In the case of Kwalu, they think that they are the one truly cultured nation in the world, the rightful leader of the free world, and that eventually the natural right of their ruler to rule and judge over all the kings of the world will be universally recognized. In the mean time, they must be content to sing the praises of their ruler in earnestness of the time when his rule is recognized over the whole earth. The country itself has barely changed in the past 6000 years. It's like a place where time stands still. They are also fairly isolated, which discourages direct imperial ambitions. But they are the regional economic power, a maritime power, and a significant player in the global market both as a buyer and seller.
 

Vespucci

First Post
The different social relationships arose according to the particulars of each region's history. I'm not a historical determinist. I believe that the choices people make influence the structure of the society that develops.

:) You know that Karl Marx, the famous historical determinist, also believed that "the choices people make influence the structure of society that develops", right?

Certain areas became patriarchal monarchies because it was a partriarchal kingship that consolodated power, which ultimately means that there was someone or someones at some time that made choices that resulted in how things were.

But now I see what you mean. This is completely superficial. X happened because X happened, which "ultimately" means that there was some other process at work.

Certain areas became matriarchal monarchies because it made sense at the time and place, and they were sustained in this because child birth was relatively less lethal than in the real world (meaning the line of succession was harder to break on the female line than in the real world) and because women could balance the martial power of men with magical power (on the battlefied).

Historical matriarchies existed without easier childbirth or magic. I think you're overlooking the role of slavery in the transition from matriarchy to partriarchy. Martial prowess in itself doesn't mean as much as property.

Matriarchy simply meant that women held title over communal property key to the survival of primitive peoples. This was socially necessary because kinship on the mother's side is fairly obvious, while determining the father in primitive conditions tended to be a matter of opinion - if that. (I understand there is recent research suggesting this social organisation has its roots in a female sexual strategy of kin solidarity.)

Patriarchy arose because men fighting other tribes laid claim to their captives as their own property. (Much as they did when hunting non-human game.) While this had a fairly short-term payoff during the period of cannibalism, slavery made this a long-term proposition. And once a male held property of his own that might outlive him, the question of who would have it after he died became very important.

So, given the complications of magic, how do you get from matriarchy in the primitive commune to a matriarchal monarchy? A matriarchal monarchy might arise in a sword-and-sorcery society if there was powerful magic in some lines of women, though this isn't a matter of "choices that resulted in how things are" - other than those of the author. If the scenario is based on choices - i.e. an individually powerful sorceress could have bequeathed her power to her daughters, grand-daughters, etc. you get rule by spellcasters, rather than women - one presumes that at least a few male sorcerers would get the same idea! (If that just "doesn't work as well", then we go back to crude historical determinism. ;))

In one case, a matriarchy was put into power as a result of a reactionary movement against an oppressive patriarchy.

"Two legs bad, four legs good", eh? ;)

A lot of your other ideas are more robust in that they are simply adopted from historical examples. If you are going to be superficial - and it's a fine approach for setting design - copying and adapting is definitely the way to go.
 

Celebrim

Legend
A lot of your other ideas are more robust in that they are simply adopted from historical examples. If you are going to be superficial...

Ok, let's start with this Matriarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read the first few paragraphs and then get back to me. Maybe after you've done some reading, I might not seem so superficial and flimsy after all.

Secondly, by saying that, "Someone did X, therefore Y resulted as opposed to Z.", I'm contrasting it with the alternative, "Y results regardless" that is popular in some quarters. Marx wasn't who I had in mind, but he would be an example of a contrasting theory. And if you think otherwise, then I think I can suggest you understand Marx no better than Matriarchy.
 

Vespucci

First Post
Ok, let's start with this Matriarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read the first few paragraphs and then get back to me. Maybe after you've done some reading, I might not seem so superficial and flimsy after all.

I have no idea how sturdy you are personally. My remarks are directly purely at the arguments you've advanced. On the same line, you seem to have a superior knowledge as to the breadth of my education than I do myself. As this is a matter of some concern to me, perhaps you could offer some helpful suggestions on how I might improve my self-knowledge? Does Wikipedia have an article on everything I've read?

Less facetiously, that wikipedia article shows clear signs of design by committee. ;) Without having read the Britannica article quoted, it's a little difficult to see why that Encyclopedia declared matriarchy hypothetical, or the basis on which it deems this a consensus view. Wikipedia's further discussion on late 20th C. and 21st C. anthropology seems to indicate that it's been defined out of existence: there are matrifocal, matrilinear, matrilocal, anything but matriarchal societies.

But if you buy that, then the same move can be applied to patriarchy. There are societies which are focused on men, in which descent is primarily measured by paternity, etc, but none which are ruled by men simply because they're men.

Secondly, by saying that, "Someone did X, therefore Y resulted as opposed to Z.", I'm contrasting it with the alternative, "Y results regardless" that is popular in some quarters. Marx wasn't who I had in mind, but he would be an example of a contrasting theory. And if you think otherwise, then I think I can suggest you understand Marx no better than Matriarchy.

While I know that it's common to regard Marx as putting forward statements of that type "Y happens regardless", such a position is scarcely credible. If he really believed that, how can his political activity be explained? Why would he have bothered writing propaganda and building parties? (Note: we are skirting the edge of a ban on politics. It doesn't matter whether Marx was right or wrong in his political activity: my point rests purely on the point that he appeared to be trying to change history. This is at odds with the view being attributed to him.)

Against this, I believe you've put forward the argument, "Agree with me, or you're an idiot." To put it mildly, I don't find that terribly persuasive.
 

Celebrim

Legend
On the same line, you seem to have a superior knowledge as to the breadth of my education than I do myself. As this is a matter of some concern to me, perhaps you could offer some helpful suggestions on how I might improve my self-knowledge?

This line of thought wasn't really even on my mind in replying to you, nor for that matter was I originally thinking of debunking Marx or getting into a political debate (much less this one). However, now that you mention it, your sources do seem fairly transparent to me.

Without having read the Britannica article quoted, it's a little difficult to see why that Encyclopedia declared matriarchy hypothetical, or the basis on which it deems this a consensus view.

It's deemed the consensus view because there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of prehistorical matriarchy at all. There is more evidence for the existance of Atlantis and UFOs than of the prehistorical matriarchy. I don't see how its difficult to consider it hypothetical, and even hypothetical is giving it more credibility than it deserves. Even the evidence of some sort of formal power sharing strikes me as rather weak, given that ancient Greece was among the most chauvanistic societies that ever exist despite featuring feminity prominently in its conception of the sacred, yet its the pre-historical Greek society that is held up as evidence of the theory.

And as far as the whole patriarchy arose out of a slave holding society thing, that's directly out of Marx's writings on Historical Materialism. You are describing the standard model of stage two development in society according to Marx, with a bit of second wave feminist critical theory thrown in. I don't have enough time to shoot all the holes in that that can be shot, nor is this the place to do so, but I think its sufficient only to raise the issue of livestock as evidence that patriarchy would not have to be based on slave holding. And an even bigger hole can be blown through the whole fantasy construct by pointing out that gorilla's and chimpanzees manage to maintain a social structure centered around dominate males without having a concept of private property more complex than 'this food I'm holding at the moment' which suggests no transition stage may have ever existed and certainly none ever need exist. Brutality and the will to use it would seem to be sufficient to me, distasteful of a concept as that may be.

Wikipedia's further discussion on late 20th C. and 21st C. anthropology seems to indicate that it's been defined out of existence: there are matrifocal, matrilinear, matrilocal, anything but matriarchal societies.

Well, except that it got defined out of existence not by the detractors of the idea, but by the supporters - defensively as it were - in order to keep having something to write about and justify their careers with.

Look, I'm not at all saying that historical patriarchies are not unjust and frankly the whole ideal I find rather repulsive, but the universality of patriarchial societies in the pre-modern world is well documented.

But if you buy that, then the same move can be applied to patriarchy. There are societies which are focused on men, in which descent is primarily measured by paternity, etc, but none which are ruled by men simply because they're men.

In almost every government of medieval Europe, a eldest daughter would not inherit the throne, title or property, if a younger son existed he ruled simply because he was a man. In modern Saudi Arabia, if you are a woman and your younger brother orders you not to do something, and you disobey, he has legal right to discpline you because he legally rules over you simply because he is a man. I think that's fairly sufficient to prove that patriarchial societies existed and often still exist, even if we didn't keep reading down the wikipedia article were it talked about prohibitions against female rule in Islam, Judism, Buddism, and Hinduism (which I would think would cover a fairly large slice of humanity).

While I know that it's common to regard Marx as putting forward statements of that type "Y happens regardless", such a position is scarcely credible.

There are a lot of things that Marx said that are are scarcely credible, but that doesn't mean he didn't say them. If Marx can be easily shown to be internally incoherent, that does not detract from my point in any way.

Look, if you want to talk about creating worlds that feel believably non-modern, believably feudal, or simply believably alien then I'm all for that. If you want to have an argument over Frankfurt school critical theory, I can't really do that here. My thought at the time didn't include Marx or feminism at all, and if you must know what was going on in my mind, it was more anti-Jared Diamond. I was suggesting that world building ought to be more about building a geography; it must also be building a history. Someone was asking me how these different social models managed to arise, and I was answering in effect, "Because people chose them." If you think that's a trivial and superficial answer, then there is little I can do about that.
 

Vespucci

First Post
It's deemed the consensus view because there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of prehistorical matriarchy at all. There is more evidence for the existance of Atlantis and UFOs than of the prehistorical matriarchy.

Ah. Good. Over to "if you disagree with me, you're a conspiracy theorist". Well, that's a step up from idiot, so thank you! But seriously, there is evidence that prehistoric peoples had a social organization lying outside of a straight line between chimpanzees and ancient Greeks. Field studies from anthropologists shouldn't be hand-waved aside.

The model is actually from Engels, who isn't normally considered a Critical Theorist or a Feminist, but that's beside the point. Regarding putting non-human animals to work, rather than killing and eating them - how does this damage his theory? It reads like an embellishment of the model, not a criticism.

Primate studies, frankly, don't look at societies at all. They're less silly, but not much more helpful, than bacteria studies including talk about the rule by a mighty streptococcus king over its vassals.

In almost every government of medieval Europe, a eldest daughter would not inherit the throne, title or property, if a younger son existed he ruled simply because he was a man.

Interesting! When it suits your argument, property is the main thing. And, when it suits your argument, Salic Law becomes near-universal. Well, I agree on the former, property is the main thing, and in feudal Europe, land was the most important form of property. But Salic law was not universal, and peasant men hardly established a rule over their womenfolk.

In modern Saudi Arabia, if you are a woman and your younger brother orders you not to do something, and you disobey, he has legal right to discpline you because he legally rules over you simply because he is a man.

I have a feeling that this is a sly representation. I won't proclaim myself a scholar of Saudi law, but as I understand it, Saudi women have a particular and singular male guardian (possibly, but not necessarily, or even most frequently, a younger brother). This is a long way from a universal rule by men over women. Don't get me wrong, it's a chauvinistic and - by any honest measure - partriarchal society. But it doesn't seem meet the rule by men in virtue of their sex test.

There are a lot of things that Marx said that are are scarcely credible, but that doesn't mean he didn't say them. If Marx can be easily shown to be internally incoherent, that does not detract from my point in any way.

Alright. If he definitely said what you want him to have said, then you should have no trouble fronting up with a quote. No need for a debate, just make the point and we'll move on.

Someone was asking me how these different social models managed to arise, and I was answering in effect, "Because people chose them." If you think that's a trivial and superficial answer, then there is little I can do about that.

Other than flame me, of course!
 

S'mon

Legend
I
Less facetiously, that wikipedia article shows clear signs of design by committee. ;) Without having read the Britannica article quoted, it's a little difficult to see why that Encyclopedia declared matriarchy hypothetical, or the basis on which it deems this a consensus view. Wikipedia's further discussion on late 20th C. and 21st C. anthropology seems to indicate that it's been defined out of existence: there are matrifocal, matrilinear, matrilocal, anything but matriarchal societies.

That seems accurate - there are no known societies in which women 'rule' in the same manner as men 'rule' in patriarchal societies. There are matrifocal cultures where female kinship networks are the main societal glue, there are societies where women do most of the work and most men sit around not doing much except compete for mating opportunities. There are apparently no real gender-switch societies which resemble patriarchal societies except women have the in-charge roles. I guess Sweden comes closest. :lol:
 



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