JoeGKushner
Adventurer
frankthedm said:
It's more like 2 Ral, the official Mind Flayer and one old, ancient beast, one from Grenadier, one weird one from ? and the 2 Reaper Bathalians.
D&d Minis Hurrayyy!
- Thread starter lobstermagnet
- Start date
It's more like 2 Ral, the official Mind Flayer and one old, ancient beast, one from Grenadier, one weird one from ? and the 2 Reaper Bathalians.
Bran Blackbyrd
Explorer
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: beating a dead horse
Well I respect your opinion and there may be a lot of people out there who like the way the D&D minis we've seen look.
I can't get around the fact that I look at them and I see crap. They could have expert paint-jobs and the minis would still stink (imho, of course). If I was a DM just getting started I wouldn't buy them. But maybe some people would.
I always cringe when a perfectly good artist is getting his/her stuff called garbage by someone here so I'll say that I'm sure the sculptors could do better with a different medium and on a product line aimed at making something other than another C*G.
MerricB said:
Absolutely - on the other hand, if you need everything (being a DM who uses a lot of different monsters), then the D&D miniatures are the best way to get started.
Cheers!
Well I respect your opinion and there may be a lot of people out there who like the way the D&D minis we've seen look.
I can't get around the fact that I look at them and I see crap. They could have expert paint-jobs and the minis would still stink (imho, of course). If I was a DM just getting started I wouldn't buy them. But maybe some people would.
I always cringe when a perfectly good artist is getting his/her stuff called garbage by someone here so I'll say that I'm sure the sculptors could do better with a different medium and on a product line aimed at making something other than another C*G.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: beating a dead horse
I believe that the proof is in Mage Knight.
The original figures for that looked awful. Okay, there were one or two good ones, but in general, the original figures weren't good.
However, it sold extremely well.
You could also do comparisons with those little plastic army men - are they as good as metal miniatures? Not a chance!
But they're cheap. And cheap means a lot.
"Pre-painted" and no "assembly required" also mean quite a deal.
The time and money spent preparing miniatures means a great deal to some people, like myself. I have a couple of dozen Chainmail figures that I bought when the game first came out. They still aren't painted, despite my having used them in D&D games.
Just buying the paint - how many colours would I need? - is a significant expense. Sure, it amortises out over all the figures, but still, it's a big start-up cost. Especially to a miniature novice like myself. I've been playing RPGs for 20 years. I have about 100 miniatures, none of which I've painted myself.
But I like using miniatures. I want to play some miniature games!
There is a difference between "good" and "good enough", especially where price is concerned, and the new D&D miniatures will be "good enough" for my purposes; and I expect a large number of other people. With a price that ranges from a third to a fifth of the cost of metal miniatures, you can understand why.
Cheers!
Bran Blackbyrd said:
I believe that the proof is in Mage Knight.
The original figures for that looked awful. Okay, there were one or two good ones, but in general, the original figures weren't good.
However, it sold extremely well.
You could also do comparisons with those little plastic army men - are they as good as metal miniatures? Not a chance!
But they're cheap. And cheap means a lot.
"Pre-painted" and no "assembly required" also mean quite a deal.
The time and money spent preparing miniatures means a great deal to some people, like myself. I have a couple of dozen Chainmail figures that I bought when the game first came out. They still aren't painted, despite my having used them in D&D games.
Just buying the paint - how many colours would I need? - is a significant expense. Sure, it amortises out over all the figures, but still, it's a big start-up cost. Especially to a miniature novice like myself. I've been playing RPGs for 20 years. I have about 100 miniatures, none of which I've painted myself.
But I like using miniatures. I want to play some miniature games!
There is a difference between "good" and "good enough", especially where price is concerned, and the new D&D miniatures will be "good enough" for my purposes; and I expect a large number of other people. With a price that ranges from a third to a fifth of the cost of metal miniatures, you can understand why.
Cheers!
See, now here's the issue for me....
Yes, I bought Mage Knight for use as Monsters. They were pre-painted and cheap compared to pewter, and I didn't care what I got, so they fit the niche.
That said, I also sold them all off after about a year because I was continually frustrated by the lousy paintjobs and molding. Kept a few, mostly the Atlanteans army because I like the techno-magic look.
Now comes DnD. They look like late gen 1 Mage Knights. They are painted like late gen 1 Mage Knights. I am not guaranteed to get what I want when I buy a pack. The decisions they made in some of the sculpts look as little like anything I ever visualized for DND as a Mage Knight fig does.
Here are some Mage Knight figs from their current line:
First, a common. http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mageknight/figuregallery.asp?unitid=3127
Next, a Unique. http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mageknight/figuregallery.asp?unitid=3177
Show me one fig in the upcoming line that looks this good? You can't in the Medium size category. You have to go bigger....to which my answer is....
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mageknight/figuregallery.asp?unitid=3233
Show me anything in the new WotC line that looks half this good?
Here is where it stands for me. I will probably buy a booster hoping that like with Heroclix, sometimes pictures are just not kind. But if I do invest in these puppies, it'll be secondary market all the way. I have zero interest in these figs from a CMG stand point, I have Heroclix for that. I don't play Mage Knight, and I'm selling off my Warhammer armies, so no draw there. What I want is the fig I need to run my next adventure. Most of the time that means hitting reaper or old GW sculpts. Sometimes it means Chainmail. As of right now, I can't see factoring this new line in to my purchasing plans.
It's a day late and a dollar short. GW players laughed at how crude some of the DND Chainmail sculpts were in comparison to the stuff from Nottingham (No great shock since the guy in charge of the initial design was the guy at GW that every player thought couldn't sculpt for beans. He paints like a God, but his sculpting leaves a LOT to be desired.)
So now we get round 2. Mass produced minis that are not up to the standard being set by the heavyweight in this area, Wizkids, that are expected to sell on name alone. I think this idea will do well for a year honestly, as folks just buy them because it's DND. Then the bottom will fall out and it'll go the way of Chainmail.
Yes, I bought Mage Knight for use as Monsters. They were pre-painted and cheap compared to pewter, and I didn't care what I got, so they fit the niche.
That said, I also sold them all off after about a year because I was continually frustrated by the lousy paintjobs and molding. Kept a few, mostly the Atlanteans army because I like the techno-magic look.
Now comes DnD. They look like late gen 1 Mage Knights. They are painted like late gen 1 Mage Knights. I am not guaranteed to get what I want when I buy a pack. The decisions they made in some of the sculpts look as little like anything I ever visualized for DND as a Mage Knight fig does.
Here are some Mage Knight figs from their current line:
First, a common. http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mageknight/figuregallery.asp?unitid=3127
Next, a Unique. http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mageknight/figuregallery.asp?unitid=3177
Show me one fig in the upcoming line that looks this good? You can't in the Medium size category. You have to go bigger....to which my answer is....
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mageknight/figuregallery.asp?unitid=3233
Show me anything in the new WotC line that looks half this good?
Here is where it stands for me. I will probably buy a booster hoping that like with Heroclix, sometimes pictures are just not kind. But if I do invest in these puppies, it'll be secondary market all the way. I have zero interest in these figs from a CMG stand point, I have Heroclix for that. I don't play Mage Knight, and I'm selling off my Warhammer armies, so no draw there. What I want is the fig I need to run my next adventure. Most of the time that means hitting reaper or old GW sculpts. Sometimes it means Chainmail. As of right now, I can't see factoring this new line in to my purchasing plans.
It's a day late and a dollar short. GW players laughed at how crude some of the DND Chainmail sculpts were in comparison to the stuff from Nottingham (No great shock since the guy in charge of the initial design was the guy at GW that every player thought couldn't sculpt for beans. He paints like a God, but his sculpting leaves a LOT to be desired.)
So now we get round 2. Mass produced minis that are not up to the standard being set by the heavyweight in this area, Wizkids, that are expected to sell on name alone. I think this idea will do well for a year honestly, as folks just buy them because it's DND. Then the bottom will fall out and it'll go the way of Chainmail.
Bran Blackbyrd
Explorer
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: beating a dead horse
I think we all know that no matter how bad a product is some people will buy it. I'm not rich man, far from it. From my point of view the D&D minis aren't a bargain for two simple reasons; I'd be paying for a product that looked bad, and I can't choose what I want. How is it cheaper to buy multiple 10-20 dollar packs looking for one mini? The secondary market is no solution if the mini you're after is a D&D rare. Odds are a rare or uncommon D&D mini would cost as much on the secondary market as it's better-sculpted metal counterpart, if not more
Assembly: Most minis only have a few parts and the mold lines have to be removed to make it looks nice. The plastic minis might not require assembly, but I would wager they'll make it to the consumer with all of the unsightly mold marks in tact.
Paint: The D&D minis are NOT painted. They have some color splashed on here and there. If that is the quality you are looking for in a paint job then I submit to you that you can accomplish the same thing yourself with only a few shades of paint, and only a few minutes per mini. This is coming from someone with a shaky hand and no artistic talent whatsoever.
As I said, some people won't buy them because they are random, poorly sculpted and barely painted.
Well, that price is an illusion. Try getting what you want, when you want it without buying a bunch of boxes/minis that you don't want. The secondary market prices for commons may end up being fair, but you will get screwed with your pants on for rares and maybe even uncommons. That's if there even is a secondary market near you (you meaning anyone). E-bay is no solution for someone wanting a good price on a single mini. After beating other bidders and paying extortionist shipping prices, the metal mini is cheaper.
I agree that some people will buy the D&D minis, and some might be happy with their quality. But I do not think they are cheaper; not in the long run, and not in the short run.
MerricB said:
I think we all know that no matter how bad a product is some people will buy it. I'm not rich man, far from it. From my point of view the D&D minis aren't a bargain for two simple reasons; I'd be paying for a product that looked bad, and I can't choose what I want. How is it cheaper to buy multiple 10-20 dollar packs looking for one mini? The secondary market is no solution if the mini you're after is a D&D rare. Odds are a rare or uncommon D&D mini would cost as much on the secondary market as it's better-sculpted metal counterpart, if not more
Assembly: Most minis only have a few parts and the mold lines have to be removed to make it looks nice. The plastic minis might not require assembly, but I would wager they'll make it to the consumer with all of the unsightly mold marks in tact.
Paint: The D&D minis are NOT painted. They have some color splashed on here and there. If that is the quality you are looking for in a paint job then I submit to you that you can accomplish the same thing yourself with only a few shades of paint, and only a few minutes per mini. This is coming from someone with a shaky hand and no artistic talent whatsoever.
Well here is where we are both right. As you said, some people will be satisfied shelling out money for minis of the quality that WoTC is offering here and will be fine with that.
As I said, some people won't buy them because they are random, poorly sculpted and barely painted.
Well, that price is an illusion. Try getting what you want, when you want it without buying a bunch of boxes/minis that you don't want. The secondary market prices for commons may end up being fair, but you will get screwed with your pants on for rares and maybe even uncommons. That's if there even is a secondary market near you (you meaning anyone). E-bay is no solution for someone wanting a good price on a single mini. After beating other bidders and paying extortionist shipping prices, the metal mini is cheaper.
I agree that some people will buy the D&D minis, and some might be happy with their quality. But I do not think they are cheaper; not in the long run, and not in the short run.
Right back at you!
www.cardhaus.com
Have you SEEN how cheap MK commons are on this site? Many are selling for 15-20 CENTS! We can probably expect about this much for the D&D game as well. You need 10 orcs for an orcish ambush? Slap down 2 bucks for the figs, 3 for shipping and you're set to go.
Have you SEEN how cheap MK commons are on this site? Many are selling for 15-20 CENTS! We can probably expect about this much for the D&D game as well. You need 10 orcs for an orcish ambush? Slap down 2 bucks for the figs, 3 for shipping and you're set to go.
Bran Blackbyrd said:
Correct. The D&D miniatures are NOT FOR YOU.
Why you want to convince everyone else that they're NOT FOR EVERYONE ELSE betrays some ulterior motive. Or are you just looking for an argument?
The D&D Miniature line is not going to kill off metal, high-quality miniatures. They will remain. There may be a few monster sculpts that only exist in the D&D line because of copyright, but for the most part, Reaper and other companies will continue to fulfill all your needs.
I'm not looking forward to the price on individual ogre figures in the new D&D line. However, I am looking forward to the prices of the common goblins, kobolds, orcs and other commons.
Cheers!
Tidus4444 said:
Pretty much. The prices of commons should be quite cheap - uncommons I'm not so sure about. With the ratio of 2.1 commons to each uncommon, it shouldn't be that bad though.
Rares will be tricky, especially popular ones like the Ogre. $10 a figure? Not out of the question, and most people will probably find getting metal ogres (and suchlike) easier than the D&D miniature version.
Cheers!
MerricB said:
My guess would be, because of people like you, who are trying to convince everyone the crappy D&D minis are good for us. Cheap plastic minis for the masses!
"NOT FOR YOU."
Do you think that line is a solution? Is it supposed to convince someone? It's not an answer, it's at the root of the freakin' problem. Some of us want good quality, D&D specific minis, and we're not being catered to, because WotC can instead sell cheap junk to certain other people. I figure that makes you the enemy.
Not to mention that they're simply going for yet another half-assed entry into the mini market, which is irritating in and of itself.
First they try Chainmail, which seems like it's trying to compete with GW, and it flops, because it's expensive, the minis aren't much use in pen & paper, the quality is lower than Reaper and GW, and it does nothing that games already on the market don't have covered.
Seeing how well that worked, they're making the switch to selling minis that look like hammered crap, and trying to convince people they're cheap while at the same time going with the collectible angle to make sure enough money changes hands... I mean, that's just brilliant, don't even try to cater to the pen & paper crowd while trying to get a piece of the Mage Knight market share.
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