D&D 5E D&D needs to let go of the 'all classes are equal' concept

[Jd Smith1]

If that is the case, then you shouldnt worry about any of this. Your group clearly just makes it work despite the mechanics.

Of course, but this sub-forum is about the betterment of the hobby. Not every GM will have access to gamers of the quality I have assembled after decades of vetting.

The hobby will not improve until we as gamers point out the flaws and solutions.

 

[commandercrud]

All the rules are combat-focused because you don't need rules for the rest of it. That incorrectly gives the impression that it is a combat-focused game. That most players are min/maxing murder hobos dosesn't help. That said, D&D also seems to downplay the rest by oversimplifying and under-explaining. Take the couple charisma based skills, for example.

 

[payn]

Of course, but this forum is about the betterment of the hobby. Not every GM will have access to gamers of the quality I have assembled after decades of vetting.

What exactly about balanced mechanics limits your style of play? Or impacts the gaming community at large? I mean 5E has bounded accuracy which allows for mixed level parties to work better. You couldnt do this at all in games like Pathfinder 2E. 5E asks the players some RP questions for their background during PC gen. It may not be a rule mechanic, but its a nod to personality and role play. That wasnt present in past D&D games. In 3E, you often had to choose between a combat option and role play option. I would argue that 5E design has been for the betterment of the hobby. It hits both balance and old school play-styles.

 

[Jd Smith1]

What exactly about balanced mechanics limits your style of play? Or impacts the gaming community at large? I mean 5E has bounded accuracy which allows for mixed level parties to work better. You couldnt do this at all in games like Pathfinder 2E. 5E asks the players some RP questions for their background during PC gen. It may not be a rule mechanic, but its a nod to personality and role play. That wasnt present in past D&D games. In 3E, you often had to choose between a combat option and role play option. I would argue that 5E design has been for the betterment of the hobby. It hits both balance and old school play-styles.

I disagree. While 5e has brought forth some incremental rules improvements, it has eliminated the role-play classes. For a game that is 40-odd years old, D&D is mired in poor planning and unoriginal thinking.

 

[commandercrud]

I mean 5E has bounded accuracy which allows for mixed level parties to work better.

Which almost never happens because of the switch to milestone levelling.

 

[payn]

While I do like the fact that 5e has done well in achieving balance between warriors and spell-casters, I feel they have taken it too far. Not all classes need to bring the same firepower to bear, and the effort to instill 'combat balance' has dumbed down a lot of the class concepts.

By all means keep the fire-power-based classes, but things like bards/skalds should be focused more on roleplay, and not just as a support spellcaster. They should be lawyers, face men, PR specialists, and all the other roles that they actually filled.

D&D's glaring weakness is, IMO, that classes focus on combat capability, not role-play. I do not see why you cannot have a mix of both types available. If the GM doesn't want to run anything beyond a murder-hobo game, all be needs to do is to make sure his players are up to speed; after all, manmaging expectations is one of the most important duties of the GM.

Why cant a fighter or a wizard be a lawyer, a PR specialist, or a face man? Do you really need a class dedicated to this?

 

[payn]

Which almost never happens because of the switch to milestone levelling.

Sure mixed level parties are not in style anymore, but you can still do it with 5E.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Why cant a fighter or a wizard be a lawyer, a PR specialist, or a face man? Do you really need a class dedicated to this?

Well, you would need high Wisdom and charisma, for a start. Those are generally not preferred stats for those two classes.

My point however, is that D&D ought to be more concerned with offering real class options, rather than just a selection of 'how do you want to kill things'.

 

[commandercrud]

My point however, is that D&D ought to be more concerned with offering real class options, rather than just a selection of 'how do you want to kill things'.

Arguably, the ranger did that. And people never stopped complaining that it was underpowered. Which I completely disagree with.

 

[the Jester]

Which almost never happens because of the switch to milestone levelling.

Not everyone uses milestone leveling, and despite being in favor in the printed adventures, it's not the default.

Like a few others, I run mixed level groups with an "Everyone Starts at First Level" (ES@1) approach.