D&D 5E D&D Next playtest post mortem by Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson. From seven years ago.

[vagabundo]

That whole summary made me vomit a little - in my mind. During that process I wanted a cleaned up 4e engine with less feat and power bloat (powers combined with proper level damage scaling or shared between power sources and modified by class abilities). Add some more natural language in the mix to make it all easier to read etc..

Instead they threw the baby out with the bathwater. Damn the 4e fighter/warlord was the business.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The problem with this debate is, as I see it, from a role playing game design perspective where there are nods to genre conventions, using a stat just because it's higher is a bad justification.

correct, and if that was the only justicication I put forward you would have a point. BUT since I have twice in this thread and at least a dozen times this year on enworld wrote flavor text for how every stat (I do still fall down on CON though) can be justified your argument is either 1) Not paying attention or 2) activly not addressing the conversation.

That's just a purely game mechanical/power wish fulfillment justification when we should be looking at the elements of genre.
This is a heavy weapon and requires application of power to wield effectively.
This is a finesse weapon and requires application of deftness.
This is a projection of your mental power and requires the application of mental strength.
etc.

Okay so lets go back to
"I hit hard and know how to leverage my power" Str
"I maneuver quickly and agily" Dex
- Skip con others have really good ones but I struggle with it
"I have trained in knowing fighting styles as long as the wizard has to use magic, I know every form" Int
"I am perseptive and can find the right place to put my blows, and yes even rocks have vunerable spots" Wis
"I flourish and distract and through force of my overwhelming personality guide my strike" Cha

the fact that all 6 attacks look diffrent is MORE flavorful (IMO)

 

[Charlaquin]

Indeed, it seems that the whole game was built backwards, if that was supposed to be the goal.

The two rock-bottom simple combat options, Berserker Barbarian and Champion Fighter, are....poor, shall we say. The former pays dearly to use its fundamental feature and doesn't really get anything to compensate for that. The latter critically (heh) depends on getting lots and lots of combat rounds per day--as in, as close to the maximum stated amount as possible--which doesn't happen in real life.

Meanwhile, all other non-spellcasting classes are relatively complex in combat, while having literally almost nothing whatsoever to do out of combat other than "petition the DM and pray for a favorable ruling" and "check equipment list." So if you don't want to be a spellcaster, you choices are "something that doesn't keep up in combat and has no options out of combat" or "something that's finicky in combat and has no options out of combat."

Alternatively, you can be a spellcaster! ...where there's literally only one option that is somewhat low-complexity while in an actual combat (Warlock). Everything else rides pretty high on the combat complexity scale, other than maybe Paladin. Now, these options can totally do all sorts of stuff in the world outside of combat, in fact they're practically overloaded with tools for addressing that stuff if it catches their fancy.

So...you can be a spellcaster and be somewhere between slightly and severely complicated in combat, and actually feature-rich and complex outside of combat...or you can be a non-spellcaster and be somewhere between dirt-simple and low-performance or moderately effective but moderately complex in combat, and almost totally feature-deficient outside of combat unless you use spells (looking at you, Totem Barbarian and Eldritch Knight.)

It's like they heard the lesson, and articulated it, and then chucked it out the window and did what they wanted to do anyway.

(And, because the odds are literally 100% that someone will say something about this: Skills don't count. Everyone gets skills. That's not a feature provided by the Fighter class. It just straight-up isn't, and I guarantee you won't convince me otherwise. Way too many people have tried, none have succeeded.)

I don’t disagree, but even the most complex characters in 5e are much less complex to play in combat than pretty much any 4e character. YMMV on if that’s a good thing or not, but I think it’s safe to say that WotC was very successful in lowering both the floor and the ceiling of combat complexity.

Also, at the risk of fanning the flames of edition competition, I suspect the complexity of combat in 4e played a not insignificant role in driving demand for simpler combat in 5e.

 

[Sulicius]

What is our rubric for "adding to the game"?

I ask because things like Programmed Illusion, Leomund's Secret Chest, and Wall of (pick out of a list of a million materials..if you don't see it yet, we're working on it) spells all exist in this strange mishmash of near uselessness and/or redundance in the designers' "simple" game.

The reason folks do the math, is because the math has been provided and articulated and often this math is weaponized against the characters for whom the math is most relevant.

And heres the thing..

The designers did not need to provide the math

As you said, there is basically zero use case for it. But if it's going to be there, it may as well make sense.

I’d rather go about it the other way round, and take them out.

The spells from the PHB deserve a real good revision, as they vary from old edition holdovers to useless effects to spells that break the core math (shield and pass without trace).

They can’t convince me they had a shared vision when the spells were designed.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That whole summary made me vomit a little - in my mind. During that process I wanted a cleaned up 4e engine with less feat and power bloat (powers combined with proper level damage scaling or shared between power sources and modified by class abilities). Add some more natural language in the mix to make it all easier to read etc..

Instead they threw the baby out with the bathwater. Damn the 4e fighter/warlord was the business.

I think the 4e essential idea was a good one (but still needed work)

I think 4e back to drawing board with everything they learned through out it, and now 5e would make the perfect D&D (for now I am sure in the future game design will change)

imagine a PHB where the default fighter look like picking the slayer or knight BUT had options to trade out the power strike for more flavorful options (more in line with the PHB fighter)
imagine clerics and wizard mixing 4e and 5e style more like the new monster design. (Some spells are at will some are short rest some are spell slot useage... but they all are 'known/preped' so learning speak with dead makes it at will but still counts as a known/preped spell
imagine the whole system with more limited then 4e (so not half level) but slightly more then 5e (not +2-+6) for bounded accuracy
imagine everything having less HP then even 5e (so way less then 4e)
take HD instead of HS but work as HS (so use to power some things most healing works off spending or as if spent)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I’d rather go about it the other way round, and take them out.

The spells from the PHB deserve a real good revision, as they vary from old edition holdovers to useless effects to spells that break the core math (shield and pass without trace).

They can’t convince me they had a shared vision when the spells were designed.

yeah legacy spells need to be reivealuated... but some already have been. Shield isn't an encounter long buff anymore but more like a negate 1 attack

 

[Sulicius]

yeah legacy spells need to be reivealuated... but some already have been. Shield isn't an encounter long buff anymore but more like a negate 1 attack

It is +5 AC for a round. It is the most powerful spell for its level, and close to the best reaction from level 1 to 20.

 

[vagabundo]

I think the 4e essential idea was a good one (but still needed work)

I think 4e back to drawing board with everything they learned through out it, and now 5e would make the perfect D&D (for now I am sure in the future game design will change)

imagine a PHB where the default fighter look like picking the slayer or knight BUT had options to trade out the power strike for more flavorful options (more in line with the PHB fighter)
imagine clerics and wizard mixing 4e and 5e style more like the new monster design. (Some spells are at will some are short rest some are spell slot useage... but they all are 'known/preped' so learning speak with dead makes it at will but still counts as a known/preped spell
imagine the whole system with more limited then 4e (so not half level) but slightly more then 5e (not +2-+6) for bounded accuracy
imagine everything having less HP then even 5e (so way less then 4e)
take HD instead of HS but work as HS (so use to power some things most healing works off spending or as if spent)

There's definately a much sweeter spot that we got.

Maybe instead of 1/2 level everything is 1/4 or 1-20 is the level max or maybe they are built using something like 4e companion rules (like SW saga damage scaling).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It is +5 AC for a round. It is the most powerful spell for its level, and close to the best reaction from level 1 to 20.

once again on the same side... I am all for reivaluating it... I am just pointing out it already has been (maybe just not enough)

I know my buddy Jim was PISSED when he learned it wasn't 1 minute per level in 5e, and I was shocked cause I forgot it WAS that in 3e.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

There's definately a much sweeter spot that we got.

Maybe instead of 1/2 level everything is 1/4 or 1-20 is the level max or maybe they are built using something like 4e companion rules (like SW saga damage scaling).

I don't know if mine OR yours is right... but either would be a great starting point to run a 2 year playtest with and make adjustments...