D&D/Saga Edition: Additional Hitpoints at 1st Level...

[Flynn]

Good Morning, All,

This is just a quick post to ask more experienced people their opinions on the following: I have been following the Star Wars Saga Edition (SECR) previews of late, and have been considering making changes to my next campaign based on them. One of the changes I'm thinking about is the additional hitpoints at 1st level that SECR gives their characters. All characters start off with three times their hit die maximum in hitpoints at first level, before adding their Con bonus. I like what this can empower characters to do, but I have some concerns before I implement something like this.

1. Does this mean that a 1st level character counts as having three hit dice? If so, how does that affect him in terms of spells, feat progression, special ability DC calculations, etc., where hit dice are a factor?

2. Do all monsters get this same bonus in hitpoints? If not, what about the ones with class levels? Do NPC characters get this same bonus in hitpoints?

Thanks in advance for your time,
Flynn

 

[Jer]

I think that the first thing to keep in mind when looking at these changes is to remember that these changes are being made to make low-level characters more "heroic", and therefore more like their movie counterparts. It's pretty clear from the Saga Edition previews that these changes are for the "heroic" characters -- "mooks" are going to get 1 HD per level just as always.

So the question comes down to "why do you want to give your players more HD"? What change are you trying to make to how your game runs? Is this to give the 1st level characters an extra "bump" so that they survive longer, or is it to give your games more of a "dramatic/heroic" feel, or is it for some other reason I'm not thinking of at the moment?

1. Does this mean that a 1st level character counts as having three hit dice? If so, how does that affect him in terms of spells, feat progression, special ability DC calculations, etc., where hit dice are a factor?

I'd say no. Hit dice is a short-hand for "character level" as far as those things are concerned, and those things should follow character level not HD. These characters are still first level, even though they have 3 HD. It's kind of like the reverse of the level adjustment mechanic in D&D -- with a level adjustment a 3rd level character could have 2 HD and a +1 LA. Here you have a level 1 character with 3 HD instead.

Plus, if you're trying to make your characters more heroic at 1st level, then counting those extra HD as levels defeats the purpose -- you might as well just start them as 3rd level characters instead. The point of giving the extra HD is that they're still 1st level characters facing challenges appropriate for 1st level characters.

2. Do all monsters get this same bonus in hitpoints? If not, what about the ones with class levels? Do NPC characters get this same bonus in hitpoints?

I'd say no, not all monsters. And not all monsters with class levels either. The "standard" monsters that the PCs face would be the "mooks" -- things that the characters should be expected to take out in one or two hits. The standard orc guarding the pie in the 10x10 room would not need to have extra HD. Even if the guard is an orc fighter instead of a warrior, there's probably no need to give him the extra HD.

On the other hand, monsters at especially dramatic points in the adventure should probably get the extra HD -- these guys aren't just mooks they're villains. The Orc Chieftan should get the bump, as should the witch that advises him and guards him from magical attacks. And the black dragon in the depths of the cave that secretly manipulates the orc tribe should also get the bump, even if he doesn't have any class levels on top of his dragon levels.

The tricky bit would be playing with the CRs. I'd probably leave them all alone -- no penalty for the mooks who don't get the HD bonus, but no boost for the villains who get it either.

Personally, I'm not sure I'd do this for D&D myself, because I'm not sure it needs it. Because of healing magic, D&D characters are generally healed up and ready to go in an encounter, and one of the game tropes is settling down for the night as soon as all of your healing spells are used up. If I wanted a more heroic feel for my game, I'd probably just start the character's at a higher level than 1st (say 3rd level) and use the action points mechanic.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Good Morning, All,

This is just a quick post to ask more experienced people their opinions on the following: I have been following the Star Wars Saga Edition (SECR) previews of late, and have been considering making changes to my next campaign based on them. One of the changes I'm thinking about is the additional hitpoints at 1st level that SECR gives their characters. All characters start off with three times their hit die maximum in hitpoints at first level, before adding their Con bonus. I like what this can empower characters to do, but I have some concerns before I implement something like this.

1. Does this mean that a 1st level character counts as having three hit dice? If so, how does that affect him in terms of spells, feat progression, special ability DC calculations, etc., where hit dice are a factor?

2. Do all monsters get this same bonus in hitpoints? If not, what about the ones with class levels? Do NPC characters get this same bonus in hitpoints?
for your time,

1. No, they are still considered 1st level/1 HD characters, they just have triple hit points.


2. Only 1st level in a heroic class (scoundrel, scout, jedi etc) will grant triple hp.

I was thinking of implementing this into my D&D campaigns, but you must realize part of the reason this is in the Star Wars game is that even low level (mook) weapons do damage in the realms of 3d6 and 4d8 (and that's before a critical!) etc.

 

[Flynn]

I was thinking of implementing this into my D&D campaigns, but you must realize part of the reason this is in the Star Wars game is that even low level (mook) weapons do damage in the realms of 3d6 and 4d8 (and that's before a critical!) etc.

That makes sense. In that case, I may not implement such a solution. I don't like the chance that 1st level characters can be dropped with one normal strike of a great axe, but I can control what comes at the players at 1st level, so I can rectify that issue. I was concerned for character fragility, true, but now I think I see the reason behind the increase in hitpoints in SECR, and my concerns aren't centered around damage at that high a level, just those pesky orcs with great axes.

Thanks,
Flynn

 

[Delta]

I'd just start the PCs at 3rd level.

 

[Baby Samurai]

I'd just start the PCs at 3rd level.

Yeah, I almost always start my campaigns at ECL 3.

 

[Henry]

I wouldn't mind the 20 hit point "kicker" like what Hackmaster gives all characters. That's basically what this triple hit dice business really does - make them no more powerful, but more durable, during a combat.

 

[Baby Samurai]

I wouldn't mind the 20 hit point "kicker" like what Hackmaster gives all characters. That's basically what this triple hit dice business really does - make them no more powerful, but more durable, during a combat.

And stops the DM having to fudge so that the gnome that just threw a carrot at you doesn't take your ass out.

 

[pawsplay]

I often mandate Toughness for 1st level characters in my campaign. Not only does this make the characters more durable, it discourages extreme forms of prestige classing.

 

[Flynn]

Personally, I want to start my PCs off at 1st level, and not worry as much that they'll die from a lucky hit. That's part of my reason for asking about this. Now that I understand the reasons behind SECR's provision of additional hitpoints at 1st level, my reasons may not require as much of a boost.

Then again, I hadn't heard of the Hackmaster "kicker" that Henry mentioned above. Perhaps this could be simulated with the 3x starting HP, or even just adding your Con Score to the base HP at first level. I don't know. I'm still kicking it around in my head.

The average orc from the SRD bears a falchion and deals 2d4+4 damage, for an average of 9 damage (min 4, max 12), if he hits. Assuming that the average PC with a HD of 1d4, 1d6 or 1d8, maxed out, will go down with a single hit, and the 1d10 and 1d12 aren't loving life, either. I don't like that, just because that kind of thing can kill a game in the first session.

To allow the rogue, with his d6 HD by class, to survive one hit with the orc's falchion on the average, I'd have to see at least double the hitpoints at first level. This still leaves the wizard in fear for his life, as the orc's average damage still exceeds double his standard starting HP, so one hit and he still goes down. However, everyone else in the party can survive an average hit and keep on dishing it out to the orc raider, or live to run away.

If I use Henry's "kicker" suggestion, then I could simply add 10 hitpoints to the PCs' total (I rounded 9 up to 10, because it just looks bettter), and cover that single average shot, giving everyone the chance to take a hint and flee if needed. Hmmm....

Now I should consider that several suggested starting at 3rd level, anyway, I assume that's for survivability. I want the characters to go through 1st level and build up from there, but taking these suggested values, I can boost survivability by giving the PCs the loose equivalent of 3rd level hitpoints, while still starting off at the lower levels, using either the concept of the "kicker" Henry mentioned or the SECR approach.

I'm still up in the air about a specific implementation, but I think I like adding some bonus HPs at 1st level. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks in Advance,
Flynn