D&D 5E D&D Unboxing Starter Set Video is on Youtube

[Vicar In A Tutu]

It's extremely easy for a DM / group to houserule Second Wind, if they so desire. I think it sounds a bit wonky to use Second Wind again and again in order to fully heal, but I'll wait to experience it in play before I make any judgement call.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't really think it is. The problem with the "bag of rats" was that it was using a rule technicality to do more damage. It was an abuse that needed to be stamped out to prevent low level PCs from using it to kill extremely high level monsters.

This let's you recover your full hitpoints if you rest for 3 hours(2 hours on average to roll your full hitpoints and then another hour so that you have your second wind back again to use in combat) instead of 6 hours for a long rest. It seems kind of pointless with clerics and your hit dice to use first.

I don't think the intent of the rule was to allow fighters to be able to heal to full HP with a 3 hour rest. The rules are fine with that -- "we're not going to stop you from playing like that" -- but it's pretty clearly not what the rule was intended to do. From the name and the mechanic, it was likely intended to heal the fighter who just needed a few minutes to recuperate inside of a fight. It works like that, but it also works in unintended ways.

This makes it a problematic mechanic in any game that wants to use HP as the injury mechanic, since it's pretty clearly NOT, if you can heal up to full in 3 hours.

 

[Klaus]

I don't think the intent of the rule was to allow fighters to be able to heal to full HP with a 3 hour rest. The rules are fine with that -- "we're not going to stop you from playing like that" -- but it's pretty clearly not what the rule was intended to do. From the name and the mechanic, it was likely intended to heal the fighter who just needed a few minutes to recuperate inside of a fight. It works like that, but it also works in unintended ways.

This makes it a problematic mechanic in any game that wants to use HP as the injury mechanic, since it's pretty clearly NOT, if you can heal up to full in 3 hours.

Only if you're really low level, where 3d10 (avg 10.5) + 3x level is enough to heal you up to full. In one hour, a 10th level Fighter (per the video) might instead spend 10d10 (avg 35) + 10x Con mod.

 

[Matt James]

DM Fiat. I never allowed my group to abuse the Bag of Rats. It's silly and had no place in the type of game I was running. My players never had any issues with changes I made, and how I never got caught up in the technicality of a printed rule.

RAW ≠ Correct.

 

[The Hitcher]

This makes it a problematic mechanic in any game that wants to use HP as the injury mechanic, since it's pretty clearly NOT, if you can heal up to full in 3 hours.

Everyone heals up to full in eight hours anyway. There's no kind of realism going on here.

I'll say it again: hit points are a pacing mechanic. Nothing more, nothing less.

In terms of colour, you can narrate whatever makes sense for any given situation. It makes sense to me that fighters are better at picking themselves up and charging back into the fray than other classes are.

 

[Psikerlord#]

~ 45 minutes in, we get 5e's first "bag of rats" moment:

Folks mention you can use Second Wind over and over again to heal all your HP.

Mearls notes that since you need a short rest to regain it, this becomes kind of inefficient (if you can take that many short rests, you can basically heal up to full anyway), but is totally something that 5e is comfy with letting you do if you want. There's guidelines for wandering monsters in the Starter Set, and a WP/VP system present in the DMG (take damage, and your max HP goes down).

It's a "bag of rats" moment because it's a little rules technicality that most DMs will probably deal with effectively, but that is something that is RAW-OK.

Weird that everyone seems kind of hostile to the idea of using it like this -- instantly kind of thinking of ways to tamp down on it or ways that it's not "really" effective, but it does not seem like an issue to me to have a fighter burn their Second Wind to help heal their HP before or after a rest.

Sounds like there's no real codified cost to resting, just DM judgement calls, which is a little unfortunate....

There's a bit of a philosophical insight into how having a monster that the characters aren't likely to be able to beat in there changes the feel of the game. Really nice.

And apparently Nothics are considered iconic, essential creatures now? Bah!

Yes that 45 min discussion about spamming second wind is telling. Devs say its not meant to be used that way, but you can is you want to, it's up to the DM to use wandering monsters and time pressure to prevent it. Course wandering monsters dont work well outside of dungeons, and time pressures get artificial when you use them all the time. Plus .. Rope Trick? It's just dodgy, and the more fighters and MC fighters you have, the worse it is.... Otherwise devs suggest the wound module, and slower healing module, and fair enough, but have to wait for the DMG for those.

Interestingly, why did they use this version of second wind. Coz it was popular in the playtest. Well hell of course it was popular, cheesy stuff like this usually is... But that is not a good reason to implement it, when it is clearly spammable free healing, which a sizable portion of the players are going to get cranky over. A very disappointing insight into the design process of second wind... and now I think i better see how ACtion Surge also got through (just straight up poor design, not enough thinking it through from a min maxer perspective). But might be salvaged with DMG options. Just would have been better not to have to manage the issue in the first place.

 

[Talath]

And I really love the way Mearls explains that they're going to allow people who want to be boring rules exploiters to be boring to their heart's content. Burn!

I couldn't agree more. This is a return to the kind of D&D that requires that a DM has a keen and critical eye around rules and group preferences for the adjudication of situations like that is being argued on the cleric thread. There is no right answer except what each individual DM gives after careful consideration for the tastes of the DM and the players.

 

[MartyW]

Really?

Jesus H Cortez --are we really going to rehash this stupid Second Wind argument in another thread?

Hit Point != wounds. They are a gaming abstraction for brawn, endurance, adrenaline, fatigue, pixie dust and rainbow farts. Please, let's move on.

If you don't like Second Wind spamming, then house rule that they are TEMPORARY HIT POINTS instead of permanent ones.

Problem FREAKIN' solved.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I couldn't agree more. This is a return to the kind of D&D that requires that a DM has a keen and critical eye around rules and group preferences for the adjudication of situations like that is being argued on the cleric thread. There is no right answer except what each individual DM gives after careful consideration for the tastes of the DM and the players.

I was first a little bit disappointed about that particular rule. But after calming down I also realized: with the default healing mechanism in play, the power really does fit in. A fighter who rests for the night is always in top shape. Give him 2 hours of sleep and he is ready for his watch. All hi powers refreshed and even his hp have restored quite well.

If you have harsher healing rules, you can just also adjust that power:

- 1/encounter damage reduction as a reaction for 1d10+fighter level. (heroic parry)
- add some numbers of hit dice (con bonus e.g.) and use up a hit die whenever the fighter uses second wind.
- make it temporary hp, and only usable below a certain treshold (half hp)
- limit the number of short rests someone can take over the course of the day to 1,2,3 or con bonus or what you prefer.

Those solutions are the result of thinking it through with a clear head for a few minutes.
I really like solution 2. Makes constitution a nice stat to have and shows that the fighter draws from his own resources, that are more plentiful than other character´s ones.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't think the intent of the rule was to allow fighters to be able to heal to full HP with a 3 hour rest. The rules are fine with that -- "we're not going to stop you from playing like that" -- but it's pretty clearly not what the rule was intended to do. From the name and the mechanic, it was likely intended to heal the fighter who just needed a few minutes to recuperate inside of a fight. It works like that, but it also works in unintended ways.

This makes it a problematic mechanic in any game that wants to use HP as the injury mechanic, since it's pretty clearly NOT, if you can heal up to full in 3 hours.

If that's definitely not the intent, it's such obvious rules-design fail, which is what leaves the intent open to question, in my mind. They could have put any number of minor qualifiers on it and prevented that from being an issue, yet they chose not to, for some reason. It's very curious.