D&D General D&D without Resource Management

[EzekielRaiden]

Quote where what youve been informed is said, i wanna see it

I mean, we can't go two threads without someone insisting that, because 5e sells well, that means players must want every single thing that it does precisely the way it does each thing. Raise the possibility of, "It could have succeeded despite some of its characteristics, not because of absolutely every single one of them," and you'll be laughed out of the room, caricatured as someone arguing that people buy something because it sucks and everyone actually hates it completely but still spends money on it.

It's quite infuriating.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It's only logical.

Like how McDonalds is so successful because of the fact that they finely dice their onions.

 

[Shardstone]

I mean, we can't go two threads without someone insisting that, because 5e sells well, that means players must want every single thing that it does precisely the way it does each thing. Raise the possibility of, "It could have succeeded despite some of its characteristics, not because of absolutely every single one of them," and you'll be laughed out of the room, caricatured as someone arguing that people buy something because it sucks and everyone actually hates it completely but still spends money on it.

It's quite infuriating.

That has nothing to do with what Micah said. Micah said he was told this is not what modern DND fans want. That has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

 

[CreamCloud0]

1. Make magic less "I Win" button, and more "I create opportunities" button.
2. Give non-magic characters actually defined, useful utility beyond "you can make skill checks good."

It really isn't that hard. The only thing preventing it is folks being terribly precious about D&D magic as always offering "I win" buttons rather than being merely one useful tool (or set of tools, if you prefer) in a larger toolbox.

It would even be a step closer to D&D's roots. Vance's spellcasters cannot solve problems like this willy-nilly. They have to be skilled with a blade and sneaky and (etc., etc.) because their spells, while powerful, are not instant win buttons all by themselves. Conan's sorcerous opponents (and his spellcaster friends) certainly don't have "I win" buttons. Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron are some of the mightiest beings to live in the Third Age, yet they consistently act with subtleties. Etc.

i've suggested before that casters basically need their slots halved and martials need way more access to expertise and reliable talent(even if only on class apropriate skills) to raise both their skill floors and ceilings alongside guides for what can actually be achieved with skill checks.

sure magic can be reliable and effective but if it's going to be then it needs to be far less frequently useable than it currently is, then martials can take up the slack on all those things that choosing to use magic to solve it would merely be a convenience rather than a requirement, so yeah, your wizard can spider climb or fly up that cliffside but you'd rather the fighter climb up it with their +14 athletics and drop a rope down so you can keep that spell slot for something that actually needs magic, or when your last magical healer goes down you can bring them back up to positive HP with a medicine check.

 

[Corinnguard]

sure magic can be reliable and effective but if it's going to be then it needs to be far less frequently useable than it currently is, then martials can take up the slack on all those things that choosing to use magic to solve it would merely be a convenience than a requirement, so yeah, your wizard can spider climb or fly up that cliffside but you'd rather the fighter climb up it with their +14 athletics and drop a rope down so you can keep that spell slot for something that actually needs magic, or when your last magical healer goes down you can bring them back up to positive HP with a madicine check.

A caster is more likely to rely on a mundane action first to solve a problem before using a spell slot to cast a spell. The former can be performed multiple times, either by the caster themselves or by a fellow party member. Using a spell slot on an action that can be done without magic means one less spell slot for the caster to use when they really need it. And unless what they are casting is a cantrip, they'll have to wait during a long rest to get back that spell slot.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That has nothing to do with what Micah said. Micah said he was told this is not what modern DND fans want. That has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

How does it not? He is straight-up saying that others argue that, today, the many brand-new fans need D&D to retain the accumulated cruft of generations (which is something 5e actively sought), despite having zero frame of reference for those things. It's all the same idea.

i've suggested before that casters basically need their slots halved and martials need way more access to expertise and reliable talent(even if only on class apropriate skills) to raise both their skill floors and ceilings alongside guides for what can actually be achieved with skill checks.

sure magic can be reliable and effective but if it's going to be then it needs to be far less frequently useable than it currently is, then martials can take up the slack on all those things that choosing to use magic to solve it would merely be a convenience than a requirement, so yeah, your wizard can spider climb or fly up that cliffside but you'd rather the fighter climb up it with their +14 athletics and drop a rope down so you can keep that spell slot for something that actually needs magic, or when your last magical healer goes down you can bring them back up to positive HP with a madicine check.

I'm honestly not sure if this really fixes the problem? In part because it feels like just going back to a gameplay style where Wizards who actually cast spells are punished for, y'know, actually casting spells.

This is why I so vastly preferred 4e's rules for Rituals. Rituals were separate from combat magic. Typical "spellcaster" classes (e.g. Cleric or Bard but especially Wizard) got the feat for free and learned some free rituals and such, but if you wanted to cheese the hell out of the game, you had to sink actual money into it. Real, durable resources, rather than ephemeral spell slots that you can restore to yourself by taking a nice long nap.

The cost is no longer something the Wizard can eliminate. Gold spent on rituals remains spent. The rituals can still be quite powerful--I remember a group where we solved a particularly tricky logistical challenge because I had picked up a Bard ritual that was more or less "mass phantom steed"--but using them is now a genuine investment toward the group's success.

And you no longer have to punish players for using such magic. If anything, they'll need enticements to use rituals, because they'll see it as "wasting" gold that could have been spent on long-term magic items (even though few magic items are truly permanent!)

 

[Pedantic]

i've suggested before that casters basically need their slots halved and martials need way more access to expertise and reliable talent(even if only on class apropriate skills) to raise both their skill floors and ceilings alongside guides for what can actually be achieved with skill checks.

sure magic can be reliable and effective but if it's going to be then it needs to be far less frequently useable than it currently is, then martials can take up the slack on all those things that choosing to use magic to solve it would merely be a convenience rather than a requirement, so yeah, your wizard can spider climb or fly up that cliffside but you'd rather the fighter climb up it with their +14 athletics and drop a rope down so you can keep that spell slot for something that actually needs magic, or when your last magical healer goes down you can bring them back up to positive HP with a medicine check.

That doesn't solve for the resting side of the equation though, and if anything, makes the urge to take frequent rests even more acute. If the best problem solving tools are gated to a subset of the party and put on timers, the gameplay incentive is to manipulate those timers, not fallback to less effective tools.

I'm not really sold on moving everyone to encounter abilities as the best solution (I'd rather take a more holistic look at refresh schedules/resting, and encourage the game to work timed events into the basic world/campaign structure as a norm of adventure design) but that's neither here nor there, just making resources tighter doesn't really change the problem.

 

[payn]

I mean, we can't go two threads without someone insisting that, because 5e sells well, that means players must want every single thing that it does precisely the way it does each thing. Raise the possibility of, "It could have succeeded despite some of its characteristics, not because of absolutely every single one of them," and you'll be laughed out of the room, caricatured as someone arguing that people buy something because it sucks and everyone actually hates it completely but still spends money on it.

It's quite infuriating.

Many of these characteristic critiques are described as catastrophic problems to the future of D&D and that the system needs an entire overhaul to fix it. It's very difficult not to look at the success of 5E and amount of players and not agree with that take.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Just remember that on the downturn.

 

[CreamCloud0]

A caster is more likely to rely on a mundane action first to solve a problem before using a spell slot to cast a spell. The former can be performed multiple times, either by the caster themselves or by a fellow party member. Using a spell slot on an action that can be done without magic means one less spell slot for the caster to use when they really need it. And unless what they are casting is a cantrip, they'll have to wait during a long rest to get back that spell slot.

is this not exactly what i was advocating for? just with more motivation for finding skill based solutions with martial's help,

I'm honestly not sure if this really fixes the problem? In part because it feels like just going back to a gameplay style where Wizards who actually cast spells are punished for, y'know, actually casting spells.

This is why I so vastly preferred 4e's rules for Rituals. Rituals were separate from combat magic. Typical "spellcaster" classes (e.g. Cleric or Bard but especially Wizard) got the feat for free and learned some free rituals and such, but if you wanted to cheese the hell out of the game, you had to sink actual money into it. Real, durable resources, rather than ephemeral spell slots that you can restore to yourself by taking a nice long nap.

The cost is no longer something the Wizard can eliminate. Gold spent on rituals remains spent. The rituals can still be quite powerful--I remember a group where we solved a particularly tricky logistical challenge because I had picked up a Bard ritual that was more or less "mass phantom steed"--but using them is now a genuine investment toward the group's success.

And you no longer have to punish players for using such magic. If anything, they'll need enticements to use rituals, because they'll see it as "wasting" gold that could have been spent on long-term magic items (even though few magic items are truly permanent!)

i mean sure, this doesn't elimiate spells being 'i win' buttons but it'll cut back on them being the go to solution on any mildly difficult roadblock and well, casters wouldn't be punished for casting spells so much as arbitrarially casting them for things that don't require magic, it's not like they don't have infinite magic damage on tap with their cantrips, but given the amount of slots they get and the 24hour adventuring day being pretty much the norm it's not like they're strapped for them, i'm sure they'll still have a good few to throw a fireball or whatever.

i'm confused on what you're trying to say about rituals here, you start off the reply saying casters would be punished for using spell slots (which rituals can be cast without), then you say rituals are a genuine long term investment(negative implication i picked up?) then the next you're complaining about players not using them.

That doesn't solve for the resting side of the equation though, and if anything, makes the urge to take frequent rests even more acute. If the best problem solving tools are gated to a subset of the party and put on timers, the gameplay incentive is to manipulate those timers, not fallback to less effective tools.

i agree this doesn't solve the resting side of things but i feel you could put casters on a more warlock-esc short rest schedule with their reduced total of slots, recovering multiple times through the day to reduce nova-ing potential, long resting would be less severely desirable than continuing on after a short as it helps equalise slots gained from doing either, at which point martials heightened skill capacities becomes less of a lesser tool and more of an alternate choice of solution for those that don't like tracking resources.