d20 Hatred near you?

[diaglo]

you throw chip?

my hat of d02 know no limit


i think that covers all your base are belong to us.

 

[WizarDru]

No; not simple: the thread is about why people may hate d20. The notion that people hate it just because they don't like it and, therefore, we shouldn't talk about it, doesn't advance the discussion.

It makes sense to counter a particular point; it doesn't make any sense to ascribe the whole situation to arbitrary taste.

In other words, crying 'tomayto, tomahto' doesn't help.

Maybe I missed when it was stated that the thread's orientation was changed, but SSquirell started the thread thusly:

I mean do you guys experience the huge d20 hatred that seems to be out there? Waiting to attack? Seems more than a bit ridiculous. Very few companies out there abandon their original systems when they port over to d20, heck some (like CoC) dual stat. Best of both worlds.

Opinions?

Of course, I didn't see anything in Buzz's post that said 'don't talk about it'...merely 'if you're going to criticize it, at least criticize it for what it is, not what someone ascribes it to be'. Buzz has repeated multiple times that d20 was never intended to be a universal system in the fashion of a GURPS or FUDGE system.

What I find odd is how many people consider that the various systems using d20 as a negative, in and of itself. That is to say, that somehow a common bedrock ruleset is a bad thing, by simple virtue of their similarity. I found this to be GURPS singularly greatest strength, in that over the course of 15 years, I merely had to give my players slight variances in the rules to accomadate wildly different genres and settings. Having similar core mechanics is not, IMHO, a disadvantage.

Now, I heartily agree that d20 is not the best at some genres, and that some systems are particularly good at echoing certain styles or 'feels'. But I've also encountered games whose mechanics were in direct conflict with ease of use or enjoyability. I haven't played Deadlands, but it's conflict resolution using some poker variant reminds me too much of Castle Falkenstein's whist-like card resolution bidding system...a system we promptly dropped when we moved the game over to GURPS (a few years ahead of the conversion, sadly). It was not a sound mechanical system, to me, and ended up feeling much more like a gimmick than an actual well-designed system.

 

[Arnwyn]

What I find odd is how many people consider that the various systems using d20 as a negative, in and of itself.

A negative, in and of itself? I haven't seen anyone say that.

Now, I heartily agree that d20 is not the best at some genres, and that some systems are particularly good at echoing certain styles or 'feels'.

Now that, I saw.

The rest of the "universality" argument is just a poster or two being overly pedantic.

 

[Falconnan]

I could categorize the haters of the d20 System within the gaming world into four categories:

1. Fans of a specific game, who only know how to play, or strongly prefer that game.

2. People who hate level-based systems.

3. People who didn't have anything against d20, per se. They objected to the d20 "mentality" they saw.

4. People who were big fans of 1E or 2E, and saw 3E as a "dumbed down" version of AD&D, with simplified rules, elimination of "important" aspects such as THAC0 or saw the reduction of saving throw categories to 3 as a crime. A few such purists I've seen don't want to touch the d20 System, because they think it's too. In my experience, these sorts of d20 Haters typically prefer AD&D 1E/2E, Rolemaster, or Palladium for their gaming needs.

This is a trimmed down edit of an earlier post in the thread.
Now, the person who posted this is correct. Most people who refuse to try d20 from the old AD&D system believe it to be dumbed down. Okay.
Average grade level of 3.5 stuff I have entered into the computer for analysis (I was seriously bored, and tired of a particular authority figure in my life putting down my hobby as "pointless") is on the order of 12th grade. Your average news posting is supposed to be at the 6th to 8th grade level for the sake of more people understanding it.
This was 3E and 3.5E material I checked.
Math-wise, let's see . . .
Simple algebra skills (Less than half those who graduate high school seem able to handle it) . . .
Yeah, maybe it's a geek game . . .
Do geeks not rule the world? From what I can tell, the "beautiful people" just get the credit! ;-)
None of this is dumbed down. d20 is a system. I like the system for its consistency, as well as the fact it is easier to teach to people who want to role-play. Roll-players I don't need.

 

[Garlak]

Univeraslly adopted != universal RPG.

I know that, but you sir are just being silly with words.
D20 system and OGL are used by other companies, often badly.
The problem is companies using it as such to try to sell more.
D20 s*ck at low powered stuff in it's original form.
I have not said it could not work, just that it needs some modifications.
Some companies do not seem to understand that.

The problem is not WotC, it is small companies making bad D20 games.

Although I personnaly growing to dislike D20.
I prefer flexible class design instead of thousands of one trick pony PrCs.
I really need to find a system that fits my needs or modify D20 to fit.

 

[buzz]

In other words, crying 'tomayto, tomahto' doesn't help.

That's not my point at all.

My point is that I think it's bogus when people state that "d20 does foo" or "OGL does bar" (e.g., d20 makes people eschew other systems, the OGL is some sort of sinister corporate plot to undermine copyrights, etc.).

d20 doesn't "do" anything.*

d20 sits on a shelf.

d20 doesn't sprout from pods implanted in your bedroom by aliens. It doesn't make all your WoD books spontaneously burst into flame.** It isn't forcing companies to convert your favorite game to their system. It doesn't make your players show up late or welch out of paying for the pizza.

What does "do" is the market. The market has overwhelmingly asked for d20 product. The market has said to companies who are adapting d20 to different genres: "This is cool. Please do more of it."

And you know what else the market has done? Buoyed by all the fat cash d20 is bringing in, it's adapted to those gamers who who like variety, or who don't like D&D/d20 (a perpetual minority--sorry), and provided more quality "alternative" product than ever before. Don't like d20? No problem. There's always WoD, Dark Ages WoD, Exalted, InSpectres, HERO, Savage Worlds, Action!, TriStat, GURPS, Riddle of Steel, FUDGE, Godlike, HeroQuest, Rifts, Buffy, LOTR, Sorcerer, Call of Cthulhu, Ars Magica, etc, ad nauseam, ad infinitum, and the 37,506,277 free RPGs you can d/l off the Web.

This is how I see things at least. And it's why I can't, for the life of me, comprehend how anyone can be so p.o.'ed about d20 that they make it their life's mission to attribute to it all the evils of the world... just like they did to the editions of D&D prior to it, and will continue to do to any set of rules published by whomever they have deemed the Evil Corporate Empire(tm).

This doesn't negate valid critcism of the system, nor dismiss the issue of taste... because say what you want about tomatoes, it usually all comes down to taste. At some point, though, you just need to move on. Some people may think they're puttin' it to the Man by wearing their d20 hate on their sleeve, but really, the Man wouldn't know a d12 from a Dee Snyder. The Man thinks we're all stupid dorks.

Wow. I'm pretty sure I have a point in there somewhere. :\


*Let's just pretend that someone has already provided some snappy comeback to this, e.g., "You're dang right it doesn't."

**Though we can dare to dream...

 

[buzz]

D20 system and OGL are used by other companies, often badly.

It also gets used by other companies to make really stellar products that don't suck in any way, shape, or form.

Neither fact in any way changes the basic nature of the d20 SRD, or causes a temporal rift that alters how d20 has been marketed by the company that created it. Ergo, the criticism that "d20 is a lousy universal system" is still utterly nonsensical.

The problem is not WotC, it is small companies making bad D20 games.

Easy fix: don't buy those.

 

[WizarDru]

Some people may think they're puttin' it to the Man by wearing their d20 hate on their sleeve, but really, the Man wouldn't know a d12 from a Dee Snyder. The Man thinks we're all stupid dorks.

Damn, that's quotable.

 

[diaglo]

who's Dee Snyder?


edit: and how many sides does (s)he have?

edit2: the only Dee Snyder i can recall wrote some nasty punk rock lyrics. and a few books....like Wake Me Up & F*** Me. back in the 80's.

 

[rowport]

That's not my point at all.

My point is that I think it's bogus when people state that "d20 does foo" or "OGL does bar" (e.g., d20 makes people eschew other systems, the OGL is some sort of sinister corporate plot to undermine copyrights, etc.).

d20 doesn't "do" anything.*

d20 sits on a shelf.

d20 doesn't sprout from pods implanted in your bedroom by aliens. It doesn't make all your WoD books spontaneously burst into flame.** It isn't forcing companies to convert your favorite game to their system. It doesn't make your players show up late or welch out of paying for the pizza.

What does "do" is the market. The market has overwhelmingly asked for d20 product. The market has said to companies who are adapting d20 to different genres: "This is cool. Please do more of it."

And you know what else the market has done? Buoyed by all the fat cash d20 is bringing in, it's adapted to those gamers who who like variety, or who don't like D&D/d20 (a perpetual minority--sorry), and provided more quality "alternative" product than ever before. Don't like d20? No problem. There's always WoD, Dark Ages WoD, Exalted, InSpectres, HERO, Savage Worlds, Action!, TriStat, GURPS, Riddle of Steel, FUDGE, Godlike, HeroQuest, Rifts, Buffy, LOTR, Sorcerer, Call of Cthulhu, Ars Magica, etc, ad nauseam, ad infinitum, and the 37,506,277 free RPGs you can d/l off the Web.

This is how I see things at least. And it's why I can't, for the life of me, comprehend how anyone can be so p.o.'ed about d20 that they make it their life's mission to attribute to it all the evils of the world... just like they did to the editions of D&D prior to it, and will continue to do to any set of rules published by whomever they have deemed the Evil Corporate Empire(tm).

This doesn't negate valid critcism of the system, nor dismiss the issue of taste... because say what you want about tomatoes, it usually all comes down to taste. At some point, though, you just need to move on. Some people may think they're puttin' it to the Man by wearing their d20 hate on their sleeve, but really, the Man wouldn't know a d12 from a Dee Snyder. The Man thinks we're all stupid dorks.

Wow. I'm pretty sure I have a point in there somewhere. :\


*Let's just pretend that someone has already provided some snappy comeback to this, e.g., "You're dang right it doesn't."

**Though we can dare to dream...

This is the coolest post I have ever read. Buzz is my personal hero, even though he is a stupid dork.