D20 Modern or Spycraft II?

[HeapThaumaturgist]

sure the basic premis fits. There have always been people who are stronger &/or faster than the average person. The problem is they are to broad. All character types that are "strong" go here, all that are agile go under "fast", that just doesn't jive for me. Not to mention the "strong" class just sucks anyway. Talent trees, I don't like either.

Though the whole point is to dip a little here and there. You're not supposed to say: "This guy is strong, so he's a Strong hero."

Maybe he has a Strength of 16 and a Wisdom of 10 ... but if he's an investigative type, he's probably best served with Dedicated, and some Strong if the abilities there suit the concept. In many ways, the Base Classes can also serve to COVER weaknesses, instead of just highlight strengths. I've seen alot of characters that would be described as "strong" instead end up with levels in "Tough", because the strength they're thinking of might be physical resilience.

A Smart character might not have a huge Intelligence score. Maybe you needed some skill points and a flair for languages to go with that debonair and Charismatic spy.

The classes aren't really about the CHARACTER'S ability scores, but their own abilities. They highlight the score they're related to, but really they're a methodology for gathering class abilities together to fit the concept. It's a "Choose Your Own Adventure" of class design.

IMHO, it's about twice as good a system as an archetypal system could ever even HOPE to be, and about seventy-thousand times as good as a point-buy system can manage.

Honestly, at this point I get depressed every time I end up playing D&D or any other archetypal system, because I'd rather work with the d20M/GT model.

And I have an irrational and unholy loathing for point-buy systems.

One reason I reject SC2.0 out of hand. The classes are great for a spy game, but if I've got to redesign them every time the genre changes a few degrees to the left or right I'm going to be busy all week ... why not system that's largely genre-independant.

--fje

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

As far as that NPC, that's the new NPC builder in play. You can do "regular Joe" NPCs, "Special" NPCs, and then like guest stars that you stat up as full characters.

And yes, I'm pretty sure it's expected and encouraged that most all NPCs use those NPC rules. The character has all ability scores, but IIRC, they'll all be 10 unless the quality "Improved Ability" was taken, where-upon they're 18.

All things being equal, I think they included the side-note that you can still make an NPC like a PC for the people who were uncomfortable using the NPC rules, since you can make a more POWERFUL and CAPABLE individual with those rules than by using the PC rules. There's alot of room for "Enggghhh, he's totally dude-tacular at that. 18!" in the NPC rules.

I need to hack those free and turn them into a general d20 system.

--fje

Nah. Raw power wasn't the big issue. Sure maybe this guy is actually more powerful than the PCs of the right level for that adventure (I can't tell), but he's boring. Not entirely - he has nice feats, like kicking arse with a shotgun - but he has no class abilities. If he's a leader (he is, too), why doesn't he have levels in the Pointman class? If he's an intelligence analyst (which any terrorist head honcho needs to be), why doesn't he have abilities that reflect that - all he has are "skill [Roman numeral]". If he's so smart (and he should be, since he's a terrorist leader), why does he have Int and Wis of 10?

Not to mention the "strong" class just sucks anyway. Talent trees, I don't like either.

You haven't even played the system - proven by this comment.

I personally think talent trees are great. Hey, flexibility!

 

[Razuur]

Spycraft II all the way. Our group really didn't like D20 modern all that much.

Razuur

 

[Pbartender]

The one thing Spycraft does poorly is regular guy. The closest you'll get is regular guy 'action hero'. For really regular schmoes you'd use spycraft's npc system.

Yeah... But most people don't want to play a regular schmoe in an RPG, they want to play an Action Hero. "We play Regular Schmoes in Real Life, so why play one in an RPG?" is the usual reason. I'll honestly say that if you want to play a regular schmoe -- some people do and that's fine -- SC 2.0 is definitely NOT the game for you.

I'll have to dig up some of my game notes at home, and see if I can find stats for PCs and NPCs from some of the different Spycraft adventures I've run. If you can ignore the spy-oriented names of classes and abilities and feats and such, it's surprisingly easy to run a wide variety of modern genres... So far, I've done Espionage, Westerns, Science Fiction, Space Opera, Horror, Post Apocalyptic, Kung Fu, and Pulp Super Hero.

The biggest problem I've run into so far is modifying the Mission Caliber-based gear system, when the PCs don't really have specific missions to perform... Of course, the Freelance and Stockpiling options go a long way to alleviating that problem, and a very simple House Rule does the rest.

 

[Pbartender]

Nah. Raw power wasn't the big issue. Sure maybe this guy is actually more powerful than the PCs of the right level for that adventure (I can't tell), but he's boring. Not entirely - he has nice feats, like kicking arse with a shotgun - but he has no class abilities.

But he could, if you wanted him too. You can give an NPC any PC's class ability you want.

If he's a leader (he is, too), why doesn't he have levels in the Pointman class? If he's an intelligence analyst (which any terrorist head honcho needs to be), why doesn't he have abilities that reflect that - all he has are "skill [Roman numeral]". If he's so smart (and he should be, since he's a terrorist leader), why does he have Int and Wis of 10?

You're right. Looking at that stat block, without any other background information, I don't see a terrorist leader, I see an important and powerful thug, bodyguard or hitman. I think the problem isn't so much the way SC 2 NPCs get made, but that this particular villain wasn't properly built for the role he's supposed to be playing.

Let me see if I can find a few better examples of SC 2 NPCs for you...

 

[Pbartender]

From page 454 of the SC 2.0 rulebook, which can be found as a PDF preview on the Alderac website...

Standard NPCs:

Thug (Standard NPC — 33 XP): Init IV; Atk V; Def VI; Resilience V; Damage Save: VI; Competence: VI; Skills: None; Wealth: III; Weapons: 1 × Caliber I; Gear: None; Vehicle: None; Qualities: specialty (Criminal).

Tool-Pusher (Standard NPC — 9 XP): Init II; Atk II; Def I; Resilience I; Damage Save: II; Competence: IV; Skills: Electronics VI, Mechanics VI, Science (Fabrication) II; Wealth: II; Weapons: None; Gear: 3 × Caliber II; Vehicle: None; Qualities: meek (–17), non-combatant.

Tribal Warrior (Standard NPC — 48 XP): Init IV; Atk V; Def V; Resilience VII; Damage Save: VI; Competence: VIII; Skills: Survival VII; Wealth: None; Weapons: 1 × Caliber I; Gear: None; Vehicle: None; Qualities: camouflaged (forest or jungle), specialty (Tribesman).

Zombie (Standard NPC — 36 XP): Init II; Atk V; Def II; Resilience IV; Damage Save: VII; Competence: I; Skills: None; Wealth: None; Weapons: None; Gear: None; Vehicle: None; Qualities: all thumbs, clumsy, construct, damage reduction 5.

Special NPCs:

Arms Dealer (Special NPC — 78 XP): Init IV; Atk V; Def V; Resilience IV; v/wp: IV; Competence: VII; Skills: Networking VII, Streetwise VIII; Wealth: VII; Weapons: 5 × Caliber IV; Gear: 2 × Caliber II; Vehicle: 1 × Caliber III; Qualities: feat (Burglar, Criminal Contacts).

Assassin (Special NPC — 82 XP): Init VII; Atk VII; Def VI; Resilience V; v/wp: V; Competence: VI; Skills: Blend VII, Sneak VII; Wealth: V; Weapons: 3 × Caliber IV; Gear: 1 × Caliber III; Vehicle: None; Qualities: feat (Darting Weapon, Faceless, Garrote Style, Knife Style, Traceless), unnerving (+2d4).

Burglar (Special NPC — 85 XP): Init VI; Atk III; Def VII; Resilience VI; v/wp: V; Competence: VII; Skills: Acrobatics VII, Athletics VI, Blend VI, Security VII, Sneak VII; Wealth: III; Weapons: 1 × Caliber I; Gear: 3 × Caliber II; Vehicle: 1 × Caliber I; Qualities: feat (Burglar, Equilibrium Basics, Ghost Basics, Spider
Basics, Spider Mastery).

Conspiracy Hunter (Special NPC — 61 XP): Init IV; Atk III; Def V; Resilience VI; v/wp: III; Competence: V; Skills: Analysis V, Investigation V, Networking V; Wealth: III; Weapons: 1 × Caliber II; Gear: 4 × Caliber II; Vehicle: 1 × Caliber II; Qualities: all thumbs, specialty (Stranger), talented (Brainy).

Crime Lord (Special NPC — 76 XP): Init II; Atk II; Def II; Resilience III; v/wp: III; Competence: IX; Skills: Intimidate VIII, Networking VIII; Wealth: X; Weapons: None; Gear: 1 × Caliber IV; Vehicle: 1 × Caliber IV; Qualities: fearsome, feat (Silver Spoon, Well-Funded), inferior attribute (–2 Str, –2 Con), mastermind, sluggish (–10 ft.), specialty (Criminal), story-critical.

Doctor (Special NPC — 73 XP): Init III; Atk I; Def IV; Resilience III; v/wp: II; Competence: IX; Skills: Analysis VIII, Medicine IX; Wealth: IX; Weapons: None; Gear: 1 × Caliber IV; Vehicle: 1 × Caliber III; Qualities: specialty (Doctor), strong-minded (+8), superior attribute (+8 Int), talented (Privileged).

Driver (Special NPC — 77 XP): Init VII; Atk V; Def VI; Resilience V; v/wp: V; Competence: VI; Skills: Drive IX, Mechanics VI; Wealth: IV; Weapons: None; Gear: None; Vehicle: 1 × Caliber III; Qualities: feat (Baby It, Daredevil, Defensive Driving, Offensive Driving), specialty (Motorhead), superior attribute (+8 Dex), talented (Agile).

Femme Fatale (Special NPC — 45 XP): Init III; Atk II; Def V; Resilience III; v/wp: II; Competence: V; Skills: None; Wealth: VII; Weapons: 1 × Caliber I; Gear: None; Vehicle: 1 × Caliber IV; Qualities: captivating, feat (Gorgeous, The Look), foil (+0), seductive, talented (Graceful).

Forger (Special NPC — 56 XP): Init IV; Atk III; Def VI; Resilience III; v/wp: III; Competence: IX; Skills: Analysis VIII, Falsify VIII; Wealth: V; Weapons: None; Gear: 4 × Caliber III; Vehicle: None; Qualities: None.

 

[Psion]

Yeah, SC2.0 is not exactly part of the "papers and paychecks" genre.



Part of the aspiration of the system was to make 1st level competant so you didn't uniformly have to start at 5th+ level if you wanted to make a competant action hero or spy. This is part of the fallout of that.

The NPC system makes room for it for NPCs. But it's probably not the best system if you want to play everyday people as PCs.

(I wonder is TB is reading this thread. I now read "regular guy" as "regulah guy" thanks to your little story at last gencon...)

 

[Armistice]

It bears noting again that the Spycraft NPC system allows for breaking the PC mold in all the best ways. Schmoe npc's take little to no time at all to stat up. 'Boss' npc's can use all the tools of the pc's in addition to the regular npc system. If I recall correctly any PC ability given to a special Npc simply increases the base xp total by the level at which that ability would be available to a PC.

Frex, if you wanted a bad guy, who was fast on his feet and was hardly ever caught unawares, you could take the assassin quoted above and add the Evasion I (2nd) and Uncanny Dodge II (8th), increase the base xp value by 10 fill in the adjusted numbers for threat level and off you go.

'Level' doesn't matter at all for npc's (except to scale them vs. the players threat level) and you can run the adventure for different level groups without changing the statblocks.

 

[Armistice]

You know what would be nice, especially for those of us who sometimes use elements of both systems. Someone most familiar with d20 Modern post a 'concept' character with stats (can be from any era), make brief notes about how the system (i.e. feats and talents) allow the character to breathe life into the concept. Someone most familiar with Spycraft would reciprocate, as in redo that character in Spycraft terms with accompanying explanation.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Pbartender, I've read the SC II intro PDF already. None of the listed NPCs are named, classed heroes. Let's go with a complicated concept. Can you replicate this guy: http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/CR_15_Bodyguard_Leader and this guy: http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/CR_6_Sergeant