d6 HD for Wizards and Sorcerers

[FrankTrollman]

Ultimately, hit die types don't make much difference past 1st level.

The smallest hit die is the d4. It averages 2.5. The largest hit die is the d12. It averages 6.5. The difference between the smallest and the largest is only 4.

Compare and contrast to Constitution Modifiers. Before we start considering bonuses that can be gained or not (enhancement bonuses, rage bonuses, inherent bonuses, polymorphing bonuses, template bonuses, unnamed bonuses, and of course level increase bonuses), the minimum constitution is 6 (in point buy, is 1 in normal rolling), the maximum constitution is 20. A constitution of 6 gives you a modifier of -2, a constitution of 20 gives you a modifier of +5. The difference between the smallest and the largest is seven.

And that's before we start adding bonuses. Remember that people who have a high stat are more likely to value that stat and thus more likely to seek bonuses to it. Since I can easily imagine gaining bonuses to constitution of about +16 at 12th level, the largest discrepency I can see actually occuring is about 13 at 12th level.

That means, for those of you keeping track at home, that the potential constitution difference between two 12th level characters exceeds the possible value of the largest possible hit die.

So do whatever you want to hit dice. It's mostly a flavor thing anyway.

Remember: the creature type with the largest hit die (undead) have the smallest hit points for their power level.

-Frank

 

[Technik4]

Extremities

That means, for those of you keeping track at home, that the potential constitution difference between two 12th level characters exceeds the possible value of the largest possible hit die.

Really, you must be joking. First, I have almost never seen a character with a starting con of 6. I have seen it before, just extremely rarely. If you factored in NPCs maybe 1 in 100 characters have a Con that low. Even 8 is low, as who wants a negative to their Con? Dice rolling or point buy, Con gets at least a 10 by most people, and higher by anyone concerned about their hp (fighters and such).

Now, despite placing a high number in Con initially, most people also won't go to great lengths to pump it. If you have say, an 18 Con (starting 14 with a +4 item) you probably are done messing with your Con. Sure if you find a Tome that increases it, youll take it, but by and large +4 hp a level is all youre concerned about because you have other stats which drive your character (Str for Fighter-Types, Dex for Rogue-Types, and a spellcasting stat for the rest).

Also while the average between the highest and lowest die type is only 4, the beginning discrepency is 8. So a level 2 wizard and a level barbarian have a difference of 12 before Con, and even while raging I doubt Con will have a higher difference (starting 18 Con for barbarian, 22 when raging is +6, starting 14 con for wizard is +2. Difference is 4).

As far as at or around level 20, yes the HD type means less, but most games start at the lower levels and progress through the middle levels. Few games, in my experience, go past 12th level and even at 12th level rolling a d12 is quite a difference from a d4 (even if the barbarian now has a base con of 22 (26 when raging) and the wizard has a base con of 18, your difference is still only 4 when raging, 2 when not whereas the HD difference is still 4 plus the initial bonus, which is twice that). If anything, I would weight HD type and Con modifier equally, with Con eventually overtaking at the highest levels of play (without the ELH).

I don't think moving HD up or down 1 step will have a large effect on many people's games. Look at the ranger, down a HD but still performing more or less as he did in 3.5 (from my experience, if not better). Its my opinion that wizards and sorcerors dont need a boost, as they are quite powerful in their own right (Al's post above is quite in line with my thinking).

Technik

 

[S'mon]

I think you are making the most powerful classes in the game even more powerful by removing their singular weakness.

It will make Fighters look very weak. Clerics would be fine IMO, though. Personally I think 3e wizards & sorcs have way too many hp, anyway, I liked the 1e 20th-level Archmages with their 35 hp...

 

[FrankTrollman]

Really, you must be joking.

No. But I hope you are.

I was talking about potential difference - not the usual choices of people in your campaign.

If you play in games where everyone has a Constitution between 10 and 18 - good for you. But the rules do not require that to be the case. People have the option of having Constitution scores which are higher or lower than that - that players in your game don't exercise those options is completely meaningless to this discussion.

-Frank

 

[pyk]

Personally, I think not only should the Sorcerer be brought up to a d6, but also should have Simple Weapons Proficiency. The spell list should also be seperated from the Wizard, with the spell entirely centered on combat (ie Magic Missile, Fireball, Shocking Grasp, etc.). Also, the sorcerer should also have the ability to release his spells of "range touch" through his weapon. The sorcerer as described in the PHB seems more of a battle mage type, yet they are restricted to Wizard type fighting.

And if this seems to be unbalancing, then balance it off by reducing their spells per day to that of a Wizard.

 

[haiiro]

Personally, I think not only should the Sorcerer be brought up to a d6, but also should have Simple Weapons Proficiency. The spell list should also be seperated from the Wizard, with the spell entirely centered on combat (ie Magic Missile, Fireball, Shocking Grasp, etc.). Also, the sorcerer should also have the ability to release his spells of "range touch" through his weapon. The sorcerer as described in the PHB seems more of a battle mage type, yet they are restricted to Wizard type fighting.

Sorcerers already have proficiency with simple weapons, but apart from that it sounds like you'd enjoy Monte's alt.sorcerer from the Book of Eldritch Might I -- d6 HD, more skill points, more class skills, different spell list and more spells known. The balancing factor is that many utility spells (sheild, invisibility, etc.) are bumped up a level. Overall, it works out very well.

(Edit: still new to having a sig, forgot to turn it off for my second post in the thread. )

 

[Haganegiri]

Au

Cyberzombie, check out Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed he just released, it has a LOT of fresh new look on the d20 system, and the lowest Hit Die is d6 for the classes. His take on magic is 150% more flexible than the core system while only making minor changes (kinda spontaneous casting, the ability to raise or lower a spell's level to get better/worse benefits), and ALL spellcasters can heal or hurt (there is only one spell list, and ALL spellcasters use the list)

 

[Nighthawk]

For 3E, most of the groups I have been a part of, both as a gm and a player, have changed the hit dice of the arcane spellcasters to d6. We have not noticed any substantial problems. Of course, this is primarily a personal taste issue, IMO, heavily dependent on if there is a preference for "balance." I am biased the other way, as each campaign I have gmed since the early days of D&D has had said spellcasters with d6 hit dice.

 

[Jai Kel]

For 3.0 our House Rule was for Sorcerers to have a d6 HD. We had one sorceress in the party, one archer-type fighter, a roguish druid, a melee-fighter, and a bard.

By around 8th or 9th level, the sorceress was actually one of the main combatants whenever confrontations arose. She had a great CON and ended up with more HP than either the bard or the rogue/druid.

And that was fine! She was such a great character, and the players always work so well together that there really weren't any issues. However, I think you need to really look at your group and decide if it would work well or not given your players and the setting.

Also, we've gone back to the d4 for 3.5. It was pretty obvious that the d6 contributed to making that character insanely powerful at the higher levels (16 and up), and all of my players didn't want to see it happen again. She was actually overshadowing everyone else toward the end of the campaign.