Dagger spell shaper x arcane trickster

[DreamSeeker]

Hey guys I´ve a terrible doubt about who is the best one. I mean what is the best rogue the shapper one or the arcane.
We should compare them in the same level and with the apropriated equipament for a character of it level.
I think that the arcane is more powerfull because he cans give sneak attacks without hidding or using invisibility and the great weapons like abilities but the shapper is more versatible changing herself and using his divine spells for support...
So give your opinion and helps me to decide betwen those two cdp and also saying witch one do you prefer and why because rogues sometimes need the power of the spellcasting at their side

 

[Patlin]

I love my Arcane Trickster, but i'm not familiar enough with the daggerspell shaper to compare the two without doing some research first.

However, I would comment that hiding and using invisibility are far from the only ways to get your sneak attacks in. Consider some more options:

Grappled opponents lose dex vs those outside the grapple: earthen grasp, Bigby's grasping hand, and evard's black tentacles can be your friends.

Stunned opponents are likewise vulnerable. Power Word Stun and Bigby's Clenched Fist can help you here.

Distract Assailant: make your opponent flat footed as an enchantment effect.

And my favorite two words for a character able to make sneak attacks: improved blink.

 

[DreamSeeker]

Weak points

And also the spells that made a wizard gives sneack attacks until the end of the turn in undead and constructs. for more info see complete adventure. And this spells are casted as a swift action hum interesting

 

[Patlin]

And also the spells that made a wizard gives sneack attacks until the end of the turn in undead and constructs. for more info see complete adventure. And this spells are casted as a swift action hum interesting

Golem Strike allows you to sneak attack golems until the end of the round as a swift action, but I think it only removes their invulnerability to sneak attack. You still need to flank or negate their dex bonus. At least, that was my interpretation.

Grave strike is a cleric/paladin spell, and vine strike is druid/ranger. They are the same as Golem Strike, but for undead and plants rather than golems. Neither is available to my Arcane Trickster, but I suppose somebody out their might have a build with more access to divine magic than I have.

 

[Patlin]

I've re-checked golem strike, and can confirm my above impression.

Also, while looking through Complete Adventurer, I had another look at Wracking Touch. Another way to deal sneak attack damage when all else fails.

 

[DreamSeeker]

spells

yeah these are great spells but I´m with a problem: my master don´t allow us to use spell from any other book like the complete adventure. He only let us use spell from the basic book I mean how can I choose my spells only selecting spells from this book as a mage os 5 lvl? Any sugestions?
Buah I was so happy when I saw those wracking touch and golem strike

 

[Patlin]

I'm not sure I understand the question, but if you are asking for suggestions on PHB spells that are good for a sneak attacking arcane spellcaster, here are a few good ones:

0 -- Acid Splas -- No SR, No Save, and the ranged touch attack allows for a sneak attack

1 -- Reduce Person -- A significant boost to accuracy and armor from a 1st level spell

2 -- Scorching Ray -- A very solid spell to sneak attack with, with good damage even without the sneak attack bonus.

Spectral Hand -- Make use of chill touch and/or vampiric touch without being in melee range, though it's harder to get sneak attacks this way.

3 -- Blink -- not as good as improved blink, but still an excellent way to get ranged sneak attacks. Even a completely mundane rogue does well with a ring of blinking.

Vampiric Touch -- If you absolutely have to use a touch spell, this one gives you the temporary hp you'll probably need to survive.

4 -- Greater Invisibility and Black Tentacles -- other ways to get your sneak attacks
Enervation -- Another nasty spell to sneak attack with (the sneak attack damage is negative energy, not additional level loss, but still very nice.)

 

[DreamSeeker]

thanks a lot It was exactly what I´m needing but i dind´t get the improved blink and where I find it?

You helped me a lot than you but now I´m in doubt about one thing if I open a chest with mage hands and there is a trap an it is actived the target will be me or my mage hand?
And also de unseen servant or other spells that make someone or something open the chest for you?

 

[Journeyman]

I assume you mean Daggerspell Mage, since Daggerspell Shaper is a druid prestige class.

While I have played an Arcane Trickster, I've yet to see a Daggerspell Mage in use, so I can't speak to how it will work in an actual game.

I will go ahead and say that you should check and make sure your DM allows Practiced Spellcaster before going with either of these classes.

Powerful is relative here. The AT is NOT a powerful prestige class, by any means. They're actually a lot like the Mystic Theurge - they can hold their own in a high level party, but getting there is painful. Very painful. If you decide on the AT, be aware that you will be fairly useless until about level 7, and the class doesn't really become rewarding until about level 10, depending on your build.

What the AT is absolutely best for is scouting/thieving. They have all the stealth skills, lots of spells to bolster them, and intelligence as a primary ability makes them wonders with traps, even before you factor in Detect and Dispel. All those early wizard levels do bad things to your skills, though, so again, you won't really start becoming an effective scout until level 10-11.

In a fight the AT has to cope with a terrible BAB, worse than a wizard's at some levels, a wretched fortitude save, and awful hitpoints, potentially worse than a comparable wizard's since you probably want to put your second best ability into dex rather than con. Melee is suicide. They can do some damage by combining sneak attack and ranged touch attacks, but this doesn't start working well until relatively high levels, when you have both enough sneak attack and enough spells to make it worth while.

The Daggerspell is obviously intended to be a melee version of the AT, from it's feat requirements. I'm honestly curious about how this would work out. They have only marginally better hitpoints, and a slightly better BAB, but suffer from the same basic problems as the AT. You would be completely dependant on spells, both to keep you alive and to make you an effective attacker. I'm a little leary of a class that can be completely disabled by a single Dispel.

They do get more skill points than the AT, but their skill list isn't as nice. Notably they lack search and disable device, which means your party will still need a trap monkey.

I can see two big things that might work in the Daggerspell Mage's favor. The first is that since you probably aren't the party scout, you can use all those utility spells an AT probably has prepared to buff yourself instead. That might make enough of a difference to keep you alive, with a sufficiently liberal use of False Life and Vampiric Touch on top of the normal defensive spells.

The second is the AT itself. If you could get a Daggerspell Mage to high enough level, the AT is the perfect class to round out your character with, and the requirements would be manageable. The opposite isn't true, since a high level AT almost certainly doesn't have the feats for Daggerspell Mage, and isn't really interested in losing another caster level.

If you do go with the Daggerspell Mage, come back and tells us how it goes.

 

[DreamSeeker]

No journeyman I mean dagger spell shaper because I want to see witch one is better the arcane or divine combined with the rogue understand?