Dagger spell shaper x arcane trickster

[Journeyman]

Sorry, guess I didn't read your first post carefully enough.

In that case, I'd say you're looking at two totally different characters. The Daggerspell Shaper is more about getting sneak attacks in wildshape than anything else. I suspect they would be much bettter in combat than the AT, but not much use as the party rogue.

If you want a divine rogue, the Shadowbane Stalker might make for a better comparison.

 

[Patlin]

thanks a lot It was exactly what I´m needing but i dind´t get the improved blink and where I find it?

You helped me a lot than you but now I´m in doubt about one thing if I open a chest with mage hands and there is a trap an it is actived the target will be me or my mage hand?
And also de unseen servant or other spells that make someone or something open the chest for you?

I was recomending regular blink since Improved Blink is apparently disallowed. You can find Improved Blink in either Complete Arcane or Complete Divine, but Blink from the players handbook also works very well. The main difference is that improved blink allows you to avoid giving yourself a miss chance.

As to traps, it will depend on the trap description. Generally, the trap is designed to strike at the area the trap builder expected the target to be in when the trap is triggered. A poison needle grabbed by the mage hand will obviously have no effect. A crossbow bolt fired out of a chest might still have a chance to hit you if you are directly behind the mage hand, but the DM might give you credit at least by way of a circumstance penalty to it's attack roll. in my experience, most traps tend to be area effects. It should be fairly easy to determine whether you are in range of the chest if it explodes.

 

[Patlin]

Powerful is relative here. The AT is NOT a powerful prestige class, by any means. They're actually a lot like the Mystic Theurge - they can hold their own in a high level party, but getting there is painful. Very painful. If you decide on the AT, be aware that you will be fairly useless until about level 7, and the class doesn't really become rewarding until about level 10, depending on your build.

What the AT is absolutely best for is scouting/thieving. They have all the stealth skills, lots of spells to bolster them, and intelligence as a primary ability makes them wonders with traps, even before you factor in Detect and Dispel. All those early wizard levels do bad things to your skills, though, so again, you won't really start becoming an effective scout until level 10-11.

Obviously, there are many valid arcane trickster builds. My trickster has absolutely NO ability in scouting or thieving at all. I don't even have any ranks in hide and move silently. He is, however, fantastic at finding and disarming traps. Since I am the only member of the party with rogue levels, I feel far from useless. The wizard levels don't hurt my skills much --at least the ones I decided I wanted, some sacrifices are required-- but only because I was extremely carefull in planning out what skills I take, when I take them, and what order I take the class levels in. Also, I went human for the extra skill point and sacrificed a lot in point buy to get the 18 intelligence I needed to get all the skills I wanted. If your DM allows it, a Grey Elf might be an even better option.

In my opinion, this prestige class is all about the skill points and the out of combat utility they provide. Some weakness in combat (mostly at low levels) is OK as a trade off.

In a fight the AT has to cope with a terrible BAB, worse than a wizard's at some levels, a wretched fortitude save, and awful hitpoints, potentially worse than a comparable wizard's since you probably want to put your second best ability into dex rather than con. Melee is suicide. They can do some damage by combining sneak attack and ranged touch attacks, but this doesn't start working well until relatively high levels, when you have both enough sneak attack and enough spells to make it worth while.

My experiences have been similar. At level one, I used a shortbow and missed everything in sight, mostly due to lousy dice rolls. From level two on, almost all of my attacks have been ranged touch attacks which mitigates my lousy BAB. I agree that melee is suicide, but my combat plan is much more wizard like than rogue like. My only nod to the possibility of melee combat is lots of ranks in tumble so as to be able to leave melee range as smoothly as possible. Practiced Spellcaster is absolutely critical in terms of keeping a semi-respectable presence in combat.

Let's not just concentrate on weaknesses, though. Have you ever played a rogue in an undead heavy dungeon? It's a serious pain! You find yourself bemoaning the lack of sneak attacks, and you're consigned to having an in-combat roll as a seriously defective fighter. The arcane trickster, if pressed, can go into wizard mode and do well even on opponents that can't be sneak attacked. If a mummy attacks, that scorching ray will be very handy even if no sneak attack damage can be added to it, and fireball is a wonder.

So, as much as it pains me, I must agree that there is weakness in combat especially at low levels. The versatility is worth it though! And I can't wait to sneak attack someone with a disintegrate spell!

By the way -- my build is designed to fill the rogue "slot" in a party, to find and disarm traps, make listen and spot checks, that sort of thing. I *would* feel useless at low levels if the party had another character who could fulfill those functions. Having another wizard or sorceror in the party isn't so much competition as additional firepower, but I would ask the other players if anyone was playing a rogue before bringing my AT to the table in a low level game. A ranger or monk who wanted to scout would be great, of course, as that's not something I bring to the table...

Last adventure, my most usefull skill was bluff. The sorceror had a better bluff check, but I was lying outrageously to the orc guards while the sorceror player stood silent at my side. Bluff is only usefull if your actually willing to roleplay a bit of fast talking as a way to avoid combat. What fun!

 

[DreamSeeker]

I´ve made an arcane trickster and I´m going to play next sunday it isn´t powerfull or weak it´s a balanced character with strong points as Paltin saied you can face enemies imune to sneak attack.
Here is my progression: It´s an Elf rogue 4/ wizard 3/ and paragon 3 (form unearthed arcana) and the other levels are for the AT. Myfeats are great fortitude and point blank shot because I´m starting on lvl 8 and the other feats that I will take are recise shot at lvl9, Improved iniciative at lvl12, quicken spell at lvl 15 and I still have to choose other feat.
The 4 levels on rogue is to act in the surprise round and with the quicken spell I can shot two enervetion lowing enemies BA, saves and skills checks. The elf paragon gives me and adittional +2 in inteligence and two levels on wizards spells fullfiling the prerequisites to AT and also an adittional +2 on save checks against enchantments
I can face most of the chalanges of my master and disarm and find traps too because I have a +4 bonus on spot, listen and search skills (this elf paragon is great !!) and if you´re in doubt about a trap let your unseen servant trigger it at a safe distance