Daggerheart Discussion

[Vael]

Nope. Those increases will give you even better stats than anyone else in the party.

Only if they are spending the 3 Hope and it's not their dump stat.

 

[zakael19]

If I had somebody in one of my groups who wanted to play a druid, I'd probably rework it as such:

"BEASTFORM OPTIONS

When you use your “Beastform” feature, choose a creature category of your tier or lower you are holding the pattern of. At the GM’s discretion, you can describe yourself transforming into any animal that reasonably fits into that category. You can hold the patterns of a number of forms equal to your Spellcast trait, and can change the ones you have access to at the end of a long rest."

and

"Advantages: Your form makes you especially suited to certain actions. When you make an action or reaction roll related to one of the verbs listed for that creature category, spend a Hope to gain advantage on rolls of that type until the end of the scene."

 

[Thomas Shey]

I don't think the Druid's inherent bonuses to success are higher than anyone else's, so they are going to fail as often as anyone else, no?

The suggestion uptthread was about additional beastform benefits and being able to fish out Advantage commonly (and no, the fact that Disadvantage cancels that doesn't change that; anyone else getting Disadvantage is just getting a penalty instead).

Again, how common this is I'm unqualified at this point to judge.

 

[Tigris]

I don't think the Druid's inherent bonuses to success are higher than anyone else's, so they are going to fail as often as anyone else, no?

Only if they are spending the 3 Hope and it's not their dump stat.

From level 2 you have a form which uses your casting stat as its attack stat, ans which has permanent advantage on attack rolls and gives +1 to your casting stat just for being in the form without spending hope. When you spend hope it goes up +2 even, so yes the druid has (by spending 1 stress per rest) permanently higher chances to succeed in combat. It is not, as listed before, +30% but only + 25% or so. So around 80% instead of 55% against a tier 2 boss.



Edit: And even at level 1 you have a form granting +2 to strength. If you started eith +1 in strength (ehich is likely) then eith the form you also have +3 to your attack stat (1 higher than normal classes) and permanent advantage on attack rolls. This form is better, however, since you grt bonus damage if you attack after someone else attacked. So it does encourage to not hog the spotlight. While the level 2 form is even better and only requires casting stat and has even more mechanic to not let other (melee) act, since it can spend ressources to move to far without needing a roll, while other melees would need 1. So the chances of failing in scenarios where enemies start in far is even better.

 

[Agamon]

From level 2 you have a form which uses your casting stat as its attack stat, ans which has permanent advantage on attack rolls and gives +1 to your casting stat just for being in the form without spending hope. When you spend hope it goes up +2 even, so yes the druid has (by spending 1 stress per rest) permanently higher chances to succeed in combat. It is not, as listed before, +30% but only + 25% or so. So around 80% instead of 55% against a tier 2 boss.



Edit: And even at level 1 you have a form granting +2 to strength. If you started eith +1 in strength (ehich is likely) then eith the form you also have +3 to your attack stat (1 higher than normal classes) and permanent advantage on attack rolls. This form is better, however, since you grt bonus damage if you attack after someone else attacked. So it does encourage to not hog the spotlight. While the level 2 form is even better and only requires casting stat and has even more mechanic to not let other (melee) act, since it can spend ressources to move to far without needing a roll, while other melees would need 1. So the chances of failing in scenarios where enemies start in far is even better.

So, a group of adversaries are at far range from the group and the ability of the druid to insert themselves in the middle of them by themselves is a good thing? I'd be using my patented GM, "You sure you wanna do that?" lol

The math can be sometimes be a bit in their favor, but it really doesn't feel bad in play.

 

[Tigris]

So, a group of adversaries are at far range from the group and the ability of the druid to insert themselves in the middle of them by themselves is a good thing? I'd be using my patented GM, "You sure you wanna do that?" lol

If it is a single boss then yeah this is a good thing. Because everyone else would first need to do a roll and thus have a chance to fail to be in attack range of the boss.


Yes if it is s group of enemies all in the same place far at range, AND they have an ability to cheaper attack all together then its bad. But if enemies are on different places and they cant gang up on you it is definitly good. Like if an enemy tries to escape, you are the best. If 1 eneny sniper is there, you are the best.


If the GM has no fear and none of the enemies has an attack "let X colleagues attack" then you are also the best because it does not matter how many enemies there are because enemies get exactly 1 attack roll if you fail or produce a fear. (Ok with the fear you can activate a 2nd one but thats it).

The math can be sometimes be a bit in their favor, but it really doesn't feel bad in play.

A bit in their favor? For attacking they have a +20 - +25% chance to hit compared to other classes (depending on enemy difficulty), without using 3 hope. With 3 hope against a tier 2 boss its +30% chance to hit. Around 55% vs 85%. This is not just "a bit in their favor". Your failure rate is 15% vs thr 45% of others. So others have a 3 times as high failure rate as you!


They also have the highest evasion from level 2 on (base 10 which is 2 lower than rogue and ranger, but their level 2+ animal form gets +3 to evasion on top of what you have. On top of that you can also use a shield without sacrificing damage, providing an additional +1 armor per tier over rogue and ranger.


Then if you have the element subclass and go for fire and spent a stress to activae enemies which deal damage to you even take 1d8 damage themselves. And with upgraded subclass they always mark a stress when taking damage from you. And since stress on enemies is used for stronger attacks each stress limits their damage output.

So enemies attacking you as the druid is not such a bad case. You might be even the worst target to attack in a group.

 

[Reynard]

Folks overly concerned about the math in DH are focusing on the wrong thing, IMO.

 

[Tigris]

Folks overly concerned about the math in DH are focusing on the wrong thing, IMO.

Well if it would not be as extreme then maybe, but normal classes having an up to 3 time as high failure rate in combat is a problem.


Especially if a failure does mean that the enemy gets a free attack. And when you can decide to just let the same player attack over and over again.


This definirly can discourage players from trying to act in combat when they know they have a 3 times as high chance to screw up as the other player who could also act instead of you.



Also dont forget that Daggerheart has a HUGE difficulty spike on level 2 when the druid gets the biggest advantage. Level 2 is the start of tier 2 so enemies are suddenly a lot stronger. The difficulty will then fall again level 3 and 4.


So even if combat is still overall not too hard this can definitely discourage players.


Think you are a fighter and you fail 3 times as much in melee than the caster just turned into an animal... This is not only sbout math but game feel.

 

[zakael19]

Lets beat this horse some more!

I've been working on Forgotten Realms adversaries for my Neverwinter game, just about done with the Red Wizards. 23 profiles between tiers 2&3! I've also been putting together "Encounter" environments that provide some little features that follow from 4e style terrain/traps or Draw Steel! Malice abilities, things that represent what might happen to the environment when you fight this specific faction. Please ignore the Red Wizard Adept profile, I forgot to finish it...

One thing I've noticed about the Minions in DH is that they kinda well, suck. I think they forgot to notice that in 4e and other systems (DS!, maybe 13th age?) that use that sort of design in addition to feeling cool to mow down, there's also an opportunity cost to ignoring minions in a way that the Group Attack just doesnt capture well I think. I can improvise stuff like "the minions surround you, you're Restrained until they're cleared away" or whatever, but there's some really cool stuff on some 4e minion profiles that I've started porting over that doesn't focus on damage but more keeping the combat dynamic and interesting.

 

[Agamon]

If it is a single boss then yeah this is a good thing. Because everyone else would first need to do a roll and thus have a chance to fail to be in attack range of the boss.


Yes if it is s group of enemies all in the same place far at range, AND they have an ability to cheaper attack all together then its bad. But if enemies are on different places and they cant gang up on you it is definitly good. Like if an enemy tries to escape, you are the best. If 1 eneny sniper is there, you are the best.


If the GM has no fear and none of the enemies has an attack "let X colleagues attack" then you are also the best because it does not matter how many enemies there are because enemies get exactly 1 attack roll if you fail or produce a fear. (Ok with the fear you can activate a 2nd one but thats it).





A bit in their favor? For attacking they have a +20 - +25% chance to hit compared to other classes (depending on enemy difficulty), without using 3 hope. With 3 hope against a tier 2 boss its +30% chance to hit. Around 55% vs 85%. This is not just "a bit in their favor". Your failure rate is 15% vs thr 45% of others. So others have a 3 times as high failure rate as you!


They also have the highest evasion from level 2 on (base 10 which is 2 lower than rogue and ranger, but their level 2+ animal form gets +3 to evasion on top of what you have. On top of that you can also use a shield without sacrificing damage, providing an additional +1 armor per tier over rogue and ranger.


Then if you have the element subclass and go for fire and spent a stress to activae enemies which deal damage to you even take 1d8 damage themselves. And with upgraded subclass they always mark a stress when taking damage from you. And since stress on enemies is used for stronger attacks each stress limits their damage output.

So enemies attacking you as the druid is not such a bad case. You might be even the worst target to attack in a group.

Nothing wrong with theorycrafting, I'm just saying it doesn't feel bad in play.