D&D 5E Damage on a Miss: Because otherwise Armour Class makes no sense

[Minigiant]

A theory on DOAM

Now that all 3 books of 5e are out, I can easily repeat my theory before as it is stronger.

Damage on a Miss is a technique used by designers to mitigate wasted or poor turns and give consolation prizes to players and DMs for turns which have no effect in gameplay.

DOAM works for daily spells/powers as it gives you something for using a scarce resource and having it fail on you.

DOAM worked in 4th edition because the accuracy rate was a steady 50-65% and most PCs had only a single attack with no way to improve accuracy. So 35-50% or all actions in the whole game are "Roll, Miss, Pass".

DOAM worked in 3e and Pathfinder because the game weakened the accuracy of multiple attacks so much. Late iterative attacks were luck rolls if you didn't use a feat or spell to raise accuracy significantly. It had many statistics, one being touch AC which could create the DOAM situation often.

Because of this I say Damage on a Miss is mostly unnecessary in 5th edition, it is required for 4th edition, and it might be needed in 3rd edition or Pathfinder.


In 5th, all casters get DOAM on their slotted attack spells and most warriors get a second equal attack at level 5. Warriors who don't get Extra attack have buff spells (bard, druid, cleric) or are encouraged to dual wield or stay at range. Barbarians get advantage to melee attack at will at a cost very early. Monsters also get multiple attacks early.

The only issue is Great Weapon users before level 5. Before they get a second attack, they suffer misses without the consolation of range & accuracy (bows), added AC and disadvantage on incoming attacks/bonus damage (weapon & shield), or a second attack (TWF).

Until you get that second attack, a GWF PC can spent many turns missing for 0 damage right in a foe's face with no huge Armor Class to warm them. GWF are low levels in 5e is disheartening. DOAM is a decent happiness booster.

 

[txshusker]

A missile attack does represent a single shot, throw, or whatever. Melee doesn't work that way. It's the nature of an abstract system.

But if you're in the abstract crowd, then the damage caused by a hit might not be from the missile actually penetrating or striking the body... it could be from wrenching an ankle while dodging or something like that.... of course, that means you won't be the heroic Boromir figure with eight arrows sticking out of you while you continue to fight...

 

[ExploderWizard]

But if you're in the abstract crowd, then the damage caused by a hit might not be from the missile actually penetrating or striking the body... it could be from wrenching an ankle while dodging or something like that.... of course, that means you won't be the heroic Boromir figure which eight arrows sticking out of you while you continue to fight...

The damage could be caused by any number of factors. The basic premise of success = damage and failure = no damage is what is important here. Just because some emo player gets depressed due to a bad die roll is no reason to change the whole game paradigm. With the bounded accurracy of 5E the ridiculous target numbers that generate huge miss rates are gone along with the need for damage on a miss. That doesn't mean that there will be 100% hit ratio or anything. Misses will still happen and are just a part of playing.

 

[Azzy]

It's interesting how many people put such time and energy into determining what hit points are and what they aren't and such. At the end of the day, it doesn't bloody matter—it's just a game. Just try to have fun, and not over-think such trivial matters. #firstworldproblems

 

[Umbran]

Just because some emo player gets depressed due to a bad die roll is no reason to change the whole game paradigm.

After my comment about the banhammer, even.

You want to be insulting, do it on another messageboard. This is unacceptable. Understood?

If not, please take it to e-mail or PM, and we will discuss in depth how labeling people to dismiss their preferences is acting like a big-old jerk, and why we don't want it around here.

 

[RangerWickett]

I'd love to see the HP=Injury crowd explain how an 18th level fighter regenerates. After all, he keeps regenerating until he hits half HP or he's dead, nothing in between. It is actually physically impossible to kill an 18th level fighter with a dagger in 5th edition.

He's 18th level. It's magic.

 

[Consona]

The people who say HP are fully meat are going to run into issues with D&D, just as the people who insist they are wholly abstract will run into issues with non-4E D&D.

If you accept that an arbitrary mix with some obligation of DM judgement is built into the system, then it works amazing well.

It's not wholly abstract, at least the last hit is actual meat damage.

IMO, this also applies to AC/DoaM. There are issues with pure AC and the concept of "hit/miss" in most forms of D&D. But they are easy to rationalize or narrate around. But they still are there.
DoaM also creates conflicts, but they are vastly less satisfying, for me, to work around. They drag the game down. Describing some misses as whiffs as some misses as simply failure to inflict harm works in a fun way. I find it highly unsatisfying to accept that all "misses" for certain attacks to include some degree of damage, thus making it impossible to truly miss altogether.
A "if you miss by 3 or less" style rule could resolve this. But in 30 years I've never needed it so I see no reason to start now.

Good points there.

It's interesting how many people put such time and energy into determining what hit points are and what they aren't and such. At the end of the day, it doesn't bloody matter—it's just a game. Just try to have fun, and not over-think such trivial matters. #firstworldproblems

Sorry for being theoretical about the game on a internet forum. (Apologies for sarcasm. )

But on the "fun" side of the things. I think HP are one of the reasons that makes DnD fun. It gives you space to interpret what happened and makes your PCs survive long enough to slay dragon.

But if you're in the abstract crowd, then the damage caused by a hit might not be from the missile actually penetrating or striking the body... it could be from wrenching an ankle while dodging or something like that....

Yea, this is how I understand HP. It's just about your interpretation.

He's 18th level. It's magic.

IMO, it's not magic, it's skill. But you can interpret it your way if that makes sense to you.

 

[Hussar]

Ok, then how does a raging barbarian take half damage from weapons? I'm really angry, so swords become only half as effective?

5e has pretty much taken the idea of HP=Meat out behind the barn and put a gun in its ear. They flat out say that the first half of your HP isn't meat at all. Never minding things like Second Wind or Hit Dice for healing. What I find really funny is that after years of sturm and drang over HP and how 4e was such a radical departure from what came before, 5e is getting a free pass on the whole thing. Several classes flat out make HP=Meat impossible. The healing system is largely abstract and, we do in fact, have DoaM in the system with non-magical attacks.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Nearly everything in D&D combat is abstracted mechanics that were made from a wargaming POV way back when. I've come to terms with the idea that D&D isn't a great model of medieval style combat, weapons, armor, tactics, etc. Its an abstracted systems that works pretty well for adventure gaming. Games like Harnmaster can be fun with the attempts at hyper realism but not my cup of tea in terms of mechanics or pace of play.

We tried Hackmaster 5e and it had damage on a shield hit, and stuff like that. Was it more realistic? In some areas but trying to model frantic combats in a turn by turn model always has issues. Was it more fun? Not really, and other problems moved us back to D&D.

 

[CapnZapp]

....AD&D's armour paradigm make no sense at all...

Sorry but there really is only one thing to say:

Don't think about AC.

Just enjoy the game for what it is

Adding damage on a miss makes the game worse, even if it makes more logical sense. Don't do it. Trust me.