Damage vs HP Scaling

[Falling Icicle]

I've been scratching my head ever since I downloaded the sample characters, trying to figure out how things are going to work. One thing that has me puzzled is the way things are going to scale. I certainly hope that some of these powers will scale alot faster than +1/2 levels to damage. Even Rogues get 5 HP/level now, so unless the powers scale much quicker than that, HP will outpace damage very quickly.

For example, taking the starting Wizard character's magic missile, the damage starts at 2d4 + Intelligence (+5 in this case). The avergae HP of characters is around 20-30. Assuming ability score scaling of 1/2 levels is the only increase in damage that magic missile and other powers get, that Wizard at level 10 will be doing only 5 more points of damage, but a character could have 70-80 (or more) HP by then. At 1st level, it would take a Wizard an average of about 3-4 hits to kill someone. At level 10, it would take an average of around 5-6 hits. This gap will continue to grow as levels increase.

I hope they've accounted for this and that damage for all classes scales alot better than a piddly +1 every 2 levels.

 

[hong]

That's what higher-level powers are for, presumably. Just as using magic missile is rather slow at killing stuff compared to fireball, so a 1st level rogue or fighter ability wouldn't be as efficient as a 5th level ability.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

In the latest podcast they did say that damage would scale ... for example that 1d8 you're rolling for longsword damage might become 2d8 at higher levels.

Accuracy of attack stays relatively flat -- the "to hit" roll -- while power/experience/level impacts damage appears to be the new philosophy.

 

[fnwc]

In the latest podcast they did say that damage would scale ... for example that 1d8 you're rolling for longsword damage might become 2d8 at higher levels.

I only hope that the scaling doesn't make levels seem too generic. 3E plays fairly different at certain milestone levels: 5th level (fireball), at 9th level (death effects), and at 15th level (initiative = win).

One of the downfalls I've noticed in some games with similar power scaling is that gameplay among all levels feels entirely too similar. You're level 10 now, but you're using a sword+10 instead of a sword+1, and the monster is a level 10 kobold instead of a level 1 kobold.

From what I've read about some of the graveyard effects in the Epic powers, I don't think that will be the case, but it's a concern of mine.

 

[Falling Icicle]

That's what higher-level powers are for, presumably. Just as using magic missile is rather slow at killing stuff compared to fireball, so a 1st level rogue or fighter ability wouldn't be as efficient as a 5th level ability.

It would be kind of lame if your at-will powers become obsolete at higher levels, and I doubt this is the case. Considering the nature of at-will powers, an obsolete power is a power that will never again be used. In 3e, it's perfectly okay for lower level spells to become obsolete, because you couldn't cast an infinite number of the higher level ones per day. Low level spells were still useful if you either wanted to conserve your higher level spells or were out of them. With at will powers, that is no longer the case. It is always preferable to use your most powerful ability, since they have no cost.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if every power is available at 1st level. Increasing in level may just give more powers known and increase their effectiveness. Sleep seems to scale to any level now, for example. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

One of the downfalls I've noticed in some games with similar power scaling is that gameplay among all levels feels entirely too similar. You're level 10 now, but you're using a sword+10 instead of a sword+1, and the monster is a level 10 kobold instead of a level 1 kobold.

Yeah, I've noticed that in adaptive CRPGS that are built to discourage power-leveling, gaining levels becomes a disincentive: "Yay, I gained a level ... but it doesn't matter 'cause the monsters did too!"

At least D&D has enough monster structure that there are a lot of different monsters to choose from, so you'll see different challenges. it won't be kobolds all the way up. So it may feel different even if it actually isn't.

And reference power scaling ... we do know from the Rohue writeup that there are powers that only become available at higher levels, so there will certainly be new things.

 

[hong]

It would be kind of lame if your at-will powers become obsolete at higher levels, and I doubt this is the case.

I've seen nothing to indicate that at-will powers can only be 1st level, however.

 

[hong]

I only hope that the scaling doesn't make levels seem too generic. 3E plays fairly different at certain milestone levels: 5th level (fireball), at 9th level (death effects), and at 15th level (initiative = win).

One of the downfalls I've noticed in some games with similar power scaling is that gameplay among all levels feels entirely too similar. You're level 10 now, but you're using a sword+10 instead of a sword+1, and the monster is a level 10 kobold instead of a level 1 kobold.

That has to do with encounter design, not the ruleset as such. Nothing stops a DM sending a 10th level party against an army of kobold minions (the ones that die in 1 hit). It'll be a slaughter, of course, but such encounters can have a purpose.

 

[Mirtek]

I only hope that the scaling doesn't make levels seem too generic.
[...]
One of the downfalls I've noticed in some games with similar power scaling is that gameplay among all levels feels entirely too similar. You're level 10 now, but you're using a sword+10 instead of a sword+1, and the monster is a level 10 kobold instead of a level 1 kobold.

That's also my fear.

With "AND, just to sweeten the deal, there are now real, honest to god dragon encounters set as low as level 3. Yes, you can actually fight a white dragon in a tough fight at level 1." I wonder what's the point with the higher levels. If I already had the tough dragon fight at level 3, why should I look forward to the tough dragon fight at level 15?

With perfectly scaling rules, it will just be like the 3rd level fight only instead of dealing 10 damage per hit against the 100hp monster we will be dealing 30 damage per hit against the 300hp monster.

Looking at the stats of the 4th level black dragon, he can already do everything the paragon red dragon did in the early dragon fight preview. So will it become just a re-enactment with higher numbers but nothing new?

 

[Bandreus]

I think that power's damage is going to scale smoothly while you level.
Not only 10th lvl Powers > 1st lvl Powers, but 1st lvl Power used by a 10th lvl Character > 1st lvl Power used by a 1th lvl Character. I'm not talking about the 1/2lvl modifier, but rather the Powers dealing more damage while you level up.

I think I read some article or listened to a podcast with designers talking about how your low level powers will still be usefull at higher levels (even if I doubt you'll actually want to use a magic missile on a pit fiend). dunno if this is going to be achieved by feat selection or something else, tough