Dark Sun Encounters: Sub-Par Characters

[BASHMAN]

It's been my experience that the 4e pregen characters are pretty much always designed to be sucktastic (aka "not optimized"). Combine the wrong race / class together to handicap the character and "prove" what a great role-player you are (or in this case "prove" that certain races/classes can go together despite mathematical inferiority) kinda stuff. Always has seemed a bit pretentious to me, and I never liked it.

I especially don't like it when people do this with pre-gen characters - pre-gens are supposed to be *archetypal* examples of people who are *good* at what they do... not "interesting" inspectre Clouseau wanna-bes who bumble through the adventure. Making the character interesting is how the player brings out the personality. Having essentially a -1 to -2 penalty on just about everything they do because they have the wrong race/class/stats, etc doesn't make the game more fun. They seem to avoid the optimal race/class/feat/weapon combos on purpose... and it is infuriating to say the least.

 

[Jhaelen]

I don't care that I'm not technically allowed to bring in new monsters from outside the module or reduce a monster's defenses by more than one.

Huh? Who says you aren't 'technically' allowed to do that?

My impression was that you not only _can_ make such adjustments, you're even encouraged to do so. All of the RPGA modules state in their introduction that the DM should feel free to adjust the adventure to match the group's capabilities and preferences.

 

[renau1g]

It's been my experience that the 4e pregen characters are pretty much always designed to be sucktastic (aka "not optimized"). Combine the wrong race / class together to handicap the character and "prove" what a great role-player you are (or in this case "prove" that certain races/classes can go together despite mathematical inferiority) kinda stuff. Always has seemed a bit pretentious to me, and I never liked it.

I especially don't like it when people do this with pre-gen characters - pre-gens are supposed to be *archetypal* examples of people who are *good* at what they do... not "interesting" inspectre Clouseau wanna-bes who bumble through the adventure. Making the character interesting is how the player brings out the personality. Having essentially a -1 to -2 penalty on just about everything they do because they have the wrong race/class/stats, etc doesn't make the game more fun. They seem to avoid the optimal race/class/feat/weapon combos on purpose... and it is infuriating to say the least.

Yeah I've been thoroughly unimpressed with the pregens, IIRC there was even a ranger one without Twin Strike (although my memory may be off on that). I played a goliath barbarian for WWgame day when PHB2 came out and was amazed how poorly the PC was built even for an excellent combo.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

those authors don't care that they were involved with these modules.

To be fair to the authors, they lose a lot of control over the final form of their adventure once it is sold to WotC.

If you read the "Ask the Author" thread at the forum I linked up-thread here, you'll see that the author of the current Dark Sun adventure does care very much. He follows the discussions there and often elucidates what he was thinking when he designed and developed each sesssion.

It becomes clear he had a short deadline to adapt his adventure to the very-beta Dark Sun rules. The author may or may not have play tested it, but it's fair for him to assume that there would be time in the project plan for it to be play tested by WotC before it was sent off to the FLGS for organized play. That pretty clearly didn't happen, which he had no control over. Also, editing made changes to the adventure after he handed it off and without his knowledge. A major editorial change created the bizarre and confusing situation with the skill challenge/survival days/sun sickness situation FUBAR in chapter one.

And that's why when there's a monster in an LFR module with ridiculous defenses, I don't care that I'm not technically allowed to bring in new monsters from outside the module or reduce a monster's defenses by more than one.

Encounters is not Living Forgotten Realms. It may vaguely look and sound like it, but it is not. Encounter DMs have significant latitude to make the game work at their table. I have significantly altered monsters and encounters to make the sessions more interesting and playable.

For example, in the encounter with the preserver dwarf, primal mage, and dust devils session in chapter one, I reduced the number of dust devils to one and reduced the accuracy and damage dice of the remaining monster's area attacks. When it was bloodied it split into two dust devils.

In the encounter with the goblins, I reskinned them as "weathered wayfarers", a strange race of small humanoid nomads. I created a little morale table to add a little more effect than just "if the casters die, everyone else runs" and which ended the encounter with a caster surrendering and enabling a great roleplaying session that wouldn't have happened otherwise.

The primary reason we are losing players at our FLGS is because we have extremely new and inexperienced/unimaginative DMs (I'm resisting calling them "bad").

IMHO, if Encounters has a fundamental problem, it is that it isn't being run the way organized play should and the people running the game don't have adequate support.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the Encounters team needs to take lessons from the Magic team and create a DM development program to equal the Magic Judge program.

 

[Tony Vargas]

One thing to consider is that many players take pride in being able to build 'superior' characters - in powergaming or 'optimization' or 'system mastery' or whatever you want to call it.

By presenting a fairly easy to beat baseline, you encourage players to have little 'eureka' moments when they realize how they could have built the character better. Which leads to them wanting to build their own character, and make it as good as possible. Which leads to them wanting suplements that give them more character-building options.

All that, of course, only if they don't walk away thinking 'this game sucks,' because their demo character couldn't even hit a goblin for several rounds in a row.

 

[Jhaelen]

Yeah I've been thoroughly unimpressed with the pregens, IIRC there was even a ranger one without Twin Strike (although my memory may be off on that). I played a goliath barbarian for WWgame day when PHB2 came out and was amazed how poorly the PC was built even for an excellent combo.

Pregens aren't meant to impress. They also aren't meant to illustrate how to optimize characters. They're meant as a way to start playing the game with zero prep or previous knowledge.

 

[Connorsrpg]

I don't get all the rage about un-optimized pregens either. I personally love characters that don't seem to have taken all the optimised powers. I don't see why pregens are meant to be optimised at all. I remember the pregens that came with 1e products and they were all over the place.

They sound great to me...but we don't have a group of power gamers either. I agree with the sentiments that it is great when players see the pregens and 'discover' how they could have built them better.

C

 

[MerricB]

I don't get all the rage about un-optimized pregens either. I personally love characters that don't seem to have taken all the optimised powers. I don't see why pregens are meant to be optimised at all. I remember the pregens that came with 1e products and they were all over the place.

They sound great to me...but we don't have a group of power gamers either. I agree with the sentiments that it is great when players see the pregens and 'discover' how they could have built them better.

C

I don't have a problem with unoptimized pregens. I do, however, have a problem with pregens that have trouble participating in the adventure in the first place. And that's what you have with the Dark Sun Encounters pregens: characters without ranged attacks, expected to participate in encounters where ranged attacks are pretty much all you can do. (Oh, you wanted to climb into combat... good idea. Oh dear, you've failed the climb check. Try again next turn. You've made it? Cool - take 8 damage from the brambles on top of the spire which the goblins are immune to...)

 

[igniz13]

First off, you can play a Ranger without Twin Strike fairly well

Lastly, I do wonder if the sub par characters was semi-intentional as Dark Sun is meant to be a harsh environment and running from the goblins makes perfect sense.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Depends on what the terrain is. Would you think that a monster that is aquatic not drowning underwater isn't logical?... ...Not to mention it's not even logical it affects the creature, as why does necrotic goo bother a monster that lives in it anyway?

That's not the sort of thing that I'm talking about. I'm talking about an entire adventure path that has no fire places in it EXCEPT when the opponents you're fighting are duergar and therefore resistant to fire, to name the example that comes to mind. There are definitely others which are not things that should obviously not work like the examples you gave (because otherwise I wouldn't have been disappointed by trying them: I'm not a fool).

The above mentioned "goblins are immune to brambles" sounds like a perfect example.