D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Faolyn]

Why even keep slavery, actually? I thought on it long and hard, despite my earlier post.

Couldn't we replace it with something more interesting and insidious? We have these Sorcerer-Kings who are also 20th level psions. Why not have them use psionics to mindscrew people into being in their city-state? Afterall, in a Wasteland environment, numbers rule. If you can brainwash pepole into believing they've always been a citizen, or that they've long since pledged their loyalty to the sorcerer-king, then you don't need slaves. You can build a thriving city-state by abducting people and hitting them with the 9th level psychic magic nonsense.

It sounds perfect for Dark Sun, keeps the core of the ideas, but adds a lot more nuance and a less icky angle one could take. Now people aren't in literal chains being whipped and beaten, they've been possessed by a psionic "virus" that makes them leal fanatics who love their god-like rulers.

Exactly! Although I seem to remember an ep of Star Trek: Voyager with that plot.

But yeah, controlled workers, or maybe undead or construct workers (both exist in DS), or even workers who are (gasp!) actually paid to do their jobs! The sorcerer kings may be pretty evil, but that doesn't mean they can't realize that paying their workers makes for a better workforce. There are a ton of options here.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Why even keep slavery, actually? I thought on it long and hard, despite my earlier post.

Couldn't we replace it with something more interesting and insidious? We have these Sorcerer-Kings who are also 20th level psions. Why not have them use psionics to mindscrew people into being in their city-state? Afterall, in a Wasteland environment, numbers rule. If you can brainwash pepole into believing they've always been a citizen, or that they've long since pledged their loyalty to the sorcerer-king, then you don't need slaves. You can build a thriving city-state by abducting people and hitting them with the 9th level psychic magic nonsense.

It sounds perfect for Dark Sun, keeps the core of the ideas, but adds a lot more nuance and a less icky angle one could take. Now people aren't in literal chains being whipped and beaten, they've been possessed by a psionic "virus" that makes them leal fanatics who love their god-like rulers.

Seems worse than slavery to me.

 

[Hussar]

Out of curiosity, how can it be handled well?

This here was the reason I was pushing for a more exact definition of “explicit “

As I said, every seems pretty comfortable when it’s all abstract but when the rubber meets the road, everyone starts talking about how difficult it is to get right.

Which is why I have a real problem with the very simplistic yes/no of the OP. On the purely abstract? Sure it’s a great idea to use real world problems in the game. But when it comes time to actually be specific, everyone starts hemming and hawing and no one wants to actually be the one to put a foot forward.

If you think it’s so clear that wotc or any other publisher should be able to bang out a Dark Sun without any hitches, let’s see you do it.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

P

Exactly! Although I seem to remember an ep of Star Trek: Voyager with that plot.

But yeah, controlled workers, or maybe undead or construct workers (both exist in DS), or even workers who are (gasp!) actually paid to do their jobs! The sorcerer kings may be pretty evil, but that doesn't mean they can't realize that paying their workers makes for a better workforce. There are a ton of options here.

Presumably these well remunerated workers are happy going to be consumed by the Dragon as well.

 

[Argyle King]

Why even keep slavery, actually? I thought on it long and hard, despite my earlier post.

Couldn't we replace it with something more interesting and insidious? We have these Sorcerer-Kings who are also 20th level psions. Why not have them use psionics to mindscrew people into being in their city-state? Afterall, in a Wasteland environment, numbers rule. If you can brainwash pepole into believing they've always been a citizen, or that they've long since pledged their loyalty to the sorcerer-king, then you don't need slaves. You can build a thriving city-state by abducting people and hitting them with the 9th level psychic magic nonsense.

It sounds perfect for Dark Sun, keeps the core of the ideas, but adds a lot more nuance and a less icky angle one could take. Now people aren't in literal chains being whipped and beaten, they've been possessed by a psionic "virus" that makes them leal fanatics who love their god-like rulers.

I think that could be a pretty cool idea.

Though, I also think that would change the setting and how PCs interact with the challenge.

If people are psionic mind-slaves, what's the morality of conflict with them? There are other threads in which people have expressed the idea of always-evil races; I see a similar issue with people being programmed to act a certain way.

PCs might be able to fight against whip-and-chain physical slavery and free some folks. I'm not sure that's feasible with a group of people who have had their thoughts psionically altered. Arguably, that's a form of horror which goes beyond even some of the worst physical slavery because there's no way to escape it.

How deep does the psionic connection go? Can a sorcerer-king tap into thoughts for surveillance? ...take over a body to fight enemies?

From a setting perspective, I think it pushes the setting more toward something like the Matrix, contemporary concerns about "Big Brother" surveillance states, and political "NPCs."

 

[AnotherGuy]

Honestly in the black community there are a growing number of us that are fed up with the media's seeming obsession with black trauma and misery as entertainment and we don't support movies and shows about slavery even if it's portrayed as evil and there are heroes trying to stop it.

I get that. There are a certain category of shows from Hollywood that I have avoided completely because reasons I'm unable to explain here.

But are you equating slavery in RPGs to black trauma? Mindflayers with their Gith, Giants with their Dwarves, Drow with their slaves...etc
My perception of slavery is, and this may seem brutally cold, a natural evolution of society.
And the reason I've come to this conclusion is because of our disappointing human history. So it's not a far stretch to say slavery would likely exist in a fantasy setting especially when the physical differences (nevermind cultural) are far greater than skin colour.

 

[Argyle King]

This here was the reason I was pushing for a more exact definition of “explicit “

As I said, every seems pretty comfortable when it’s all abstract but when the rubber meets the road, everyone starts talking about how difficult it is to get right.

Which is why I have a real problem with the very simplistic yes/no of the OP. On the purely abstract? Sure it’s a great idea to use real world problems in the game. But when it comes time to actually be specific, everyone starts hemming and hawing and no one wants to actually be the one to put a foot forward.

If you think it’s so clear that wotc or any other publisher should be able to bang out a Dark Sun without any hitches, let’s see you do it.

A lot of what is said here is why I think such a setting should just be presented as-is without trying to tip-toe around a subject.

I don't think there's a way to do it without upsetting somebody.

Trying to do it in a half-baked way likely won't un-offend those who already don't like it, but it likely would upset those who would have otherwise bought it.

If it were me, I would add some sort of disclaimer (like I mentioned upthread). After that, I would mostly* present the setting as though I were writing a factual gazetteer of a real place. I would neither glorify the morally "problematic" content, nor would I attempt to finger wag at the reader and tell them what they ought to do.

*There may be a few side bars which present possible adventure hooks. I would also have a few side bars which talk about "morality" and likes/dislikes from the perspective of a particular group or organization. This would be intended to help facilitate creating adventures and taking the setting from just being information on a page to being used at a game table.

Personally, my biggest quandary is figuring out if I would want to write that out for contemporay D&D. There are a few other games I play which may be better suited to how I imagine the setting.

 

[Shardstone]

Seems worse than slavery to me.

As I said, more insidious.

 

[Shardstone]

I think that could be a pretty cool idea.

Though, I also think that would change the setting and how PCs interact with the challenge.

If people are psionic mind-slaves, what's the morality of conflict with them? There are other threads in which people have expressed the idea of always-evil races; I see a similar issue with people being programmed to act a certain way.

PCs might be able to fight against whip-and-chain physical slavery and free some folks. I'm not sure that's feasible with a group of people who have had their thoughts psionically altered. Arguably, that's a form of horror which goes beyond even some of the worst physical slavery because there's no way to escape it.

How deep does the psionic connection go? Can a sorcerer-king tap into thoughts for surveillance? ...take over a body to fight enemies?

From a setting perspective, I think it pushes the setting more toward something like the Matrix, contemporary concerns about "Big Brother" surveillance states, and political "NPCs."

In regards to your last line, I like that!

 

[Yaarel]

Seems worse than slavery to me.

But because a city of mind-controlled citizens is more fantasy and less reallife, it helps avoids the ick of historical slavery.

Meanwhile, the implications of such mind control lean into horror.