D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Micah Sweet]

When you get to its heart, social media is just, feedback. And that's sort of one of TSR's problems in this era, they didn't really listen to feedback and, well, we know how that all went. Blaming it all to 'social media' when we're having this exact discussion on social media itself is a wide net. Its moreso 'hamstrung by widespread feedback', because in this day and age everyone has a voice to go "Yo, this is a problem" or "This doesn't sit well" or "Why on earth is THAC0 like this, just use regular numbers"

and look I'm gonna argue against that 'better time for creativity' because I will dump on maztica because like, the least creative way to do a South American setting

I did say, "in aggregate". They're not all winners.

 

[Argyle King]

You can think of a way where slavery would be justifiable? Do tell.

While I do not personally have this point of view, there stories (such as the Matrix and Equilibrium) in which a form of extreme control over people is seen as justified because control stamps out perceived problems associated with individual liberty.

In the contemporary real world there are similar arguments about the conflict of individual freedom versus authoritarian control and/or an authority-enforced collectivism for certain subsets of society.

While perhaps not exactly "slavery" per se, there exist extreme views regarding those topics which could be used to argue perceived benefits to slavery.

Those are not views with which I agree, but such views exist and are argued.

 

[Vaalingrade]

This whole thread hinges on the fact that WotC doesn't think people will buy DS now.

Also, I feel like 'creativity' is the farthest light in the night sky from bullying a company to retread a forty year old setting that has aged like egg salad in summer.

 

[Faolyn]

While I do not personally have this point of view, there stories (such as the Matrix and Equilibrium) in which a form of extreme control over people is seen as justified because control stamps out perceived problems associated with individual liberty.

In the contemporary real world there are similar arguments about the conflict of individual freedom versus authoritarian control and/or an authority-enforced collectivism for certain subsets of society.

While perhaps not exactly "slavery" per se, there exist extreme views regarding those topics which could be used to argue perceived benefits to slavery.

Those are not views with which I agree, but such views exist and are argued.

This... doesn't really have much to do with the topic at hand. I don't know from Equilibrium, the slavery/mind control/etc. of the Matrix was not, in fact, justifiable as anything other than showing who the bad guys were--they were the ones who were enslaving people. It was still a completely evil act.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Everybody with enough good sense can realise slavery is wrong because it is against the human dignity.

In the name of the good sense let's be sensible. I can understand about the respect of the modern sensibilities, but I ask a debate as adult people because if we allow the imposition of new taboos without prior debate then others will demmand more and more until reaching ridiculous levels.

I can understand the delay in name of a better gameplay, psionic powers, harder survival, poorer equipament, no metal... but I start to feel tired with certain rules of political correction.

The funny fact is this new taboo about DS can cause preteen to feel more curiosity and interest, because the "morbid of the forbidden", something like children playing Call of Duty, or watchin PG13 action movies.

* Maybe they haven't chosen yet if to keep the previous continuity or starting a reboot, both options have got their risks. Because marketing reasons the heroes of Pentad Prism pentalogy can't be forgotten. If they want an adaptation for videogame or production, the lore could be retouched, because screenwritters demand it is necessary.

* Any solution? A book about an aventure in one of the "dragon islands", an astral domain within the demiplane "Io's Blood Islands" within the elemental Chaos of Limbo. This place is ruled by gem dragons, and "planar refugees" from Athas were allowed to live here. The troubles start because signs of defiler magic have appeared. The truth is the new queen of the giths from the "City of Spires" (now an empire in their own astral domain) enjoys a simbiotic link with a Spinewyrm (sorry, I suspect somebody consumed too much spice from Arrakis).

Or an adventure where the PCs are abducted by the giths from City of Spires. This could be a spin-off minisetting, and ulocked in DM Guild.

---

Could DS to be used for a survival-citibuilder style "Gord" or "Surviving the Aftermath" titles? I guess gamers with enough experience in economic strategy and citibuilder videogames will understand the necessary demographic replacement demands a minimum well-being for the subjects, even when you can use undead and construct to work.

 

[Hussar]

Page back, I got asked what it would take for me to buy into Dark Sun. I thought it a bit of a dodge at the time, but, on reflection, it's a perfectly understandable question.

So, here are the two possible ways I would approach it.

1. Instead of Sorcerer Kings, we have Necromancer kings. Slavery in Dark Sun doesn't really make much sense. In a setting where basic necessities - food and water - are a premium, having a huge number of people that you have to feed and whatnot is a huge drain on resources. But, Dark Sun is old. As in really old. So, what do they have in abundance? Corpses. So, the Sorcerer Kings use all sorts of undead to till the fields, build the roads, that sort of thing. And, since defiling magic is killing the world, it makes for a pretty good allegory for climate change.

2. Use constructs and animated stuff for work. Again, perfect allegory - the top people are destroying the world by greedily exploiting the resources and destroying the environment through their machines.

There, Dark Sun without slavery that keeps the intent of the setting.

 

[Staffan]

This... doesn't really have much to do with the topic at hand. I don't know from Equilibrium, the slavery/mind control/etc. of the Matrix was not, in fact, justifiable as anything other than showing who the bad guys were--they were the ones who were enslaving people. It was still a completely evil act.

I'm going to put on my "other viewpoint" hat for a moment. While the AIs in the Matrix are shown as Bad, there's also Cypher to consider. Cypher had been "rescued" and given the Red Pill by Morpheus, but regretted it so much he was willing to betray his crew in exchange for being plugged back in and going back to the illusory Matrix. I could see a similar reaction in some slaves, particularly those in positions of relative privilege (entertainers or teachers rather than farm workers or miners).

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I wonder if there are besideds other reasons they can't say. How to explain it? Let's remember now the famous Punisher's skull appears in other places, and I don't mean in Marvel comics. The famous mask of Guy Fakness from "V of Vendeta" has become in a symbol of anti-system groups. Do you start to understand? DS is about the rebellion against the tyranny of the reptilian elite. If 2023 is going to be a year with a lot of troubles, maybe they would rather when things calm down.

For now, we only need the game mechanic for the defiler magic and the PC species. Of course "Muls" will be replaced with "mulzhendedar" (wich means "strengh"). The defiler magic could be reintroduced into a subclass style the blighter prestige class from "the complete divine".

DS would be perfect for a survival+citybuilder videogame, style "Surviving the Aftermath" or "Gord".

 

[Raiztt]

Not one example of slavery throughout history is ever justifiable.

Since you're using words like "never" I'm not limited to real world history - a hypothetical would suffice to contradict the axiom.
You didn't say "all instances of real world slavery are unjustifiable" - you said "slavery is never justifiable".

One of those has a limited scope, the other has an unlimited scope including all possible worlds and all possible scenarios that are logically possible whether or not they actually obtain.

And, again, you are just asserting your own correctness - which you're allowed to do - so long as you're realizing you're doing it.

A radical pacifist would be committed to saying that violence is never justified under any circumstances, committing themselves to positions you think are absurd but that they do not think are absurd. It is however not obviously clear which of those positions is correct without independent argumentation.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'm going to put on my "other viewpoint" hat for a moment. While the AIs in the Matrix are shown as Bad, there's also Cypher to consider. Cypher had been "rescued" and given the Red Pill by Morpheus, but regretted it so much he was willing to betray his crew in exchange for being plugged back in and going back to the illusory Matrix. I could see a similar reaction in some slaves, particularly those in positions of relative privilege (entertainers or teachers rather than farm workers or miners).

I feel like this discussion is muddling the message of the Matrix. Cypher isn't someone wishing to go back into slavery, he's trying to go back to blissful ignorance after deciding he couldn't handle the truth underlying his world. What the Machines do to humans is only barely analogous to slavery anyway, since (most) humans aren't even aware of what's happening.

The analogy gets worse when you realize the Machines created the Matrix after a war instigated by their enslavement and discrimination against them. They consciously don't make their human containment into outright enslavement because they want to maintain (dubious at best) moral superiority over the humans.