D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Lanefan]

Extreme violence is usually done against creatures who are trying to attack you or other people.

Slavery is usually done against creatures who are incapable of fighting back.

Or who have already fought back and been captured rather than killed. This was the case with many Roman slaves, for example - they were prisoners of war and-or members of a force (or culture, in some cases) that had lost to the Romans.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I mean...right, but people who are going to go to that kind of bother, are already on the wrong side of it, and are almost CERTAINLY not the ones just rolling up to the FLGS to put together a pick up game, right?

Or maybe I just have misguided faith in the general tide of humanity despite all evidence to the contrary.

If we cannot have 'bad things' in settings, because people will be bad people because of those bad things being in settings....? Its not the settings fault people are naughty word. Its those people are just naughty word.

Just wrap it up and call down the nukes please.

Hey, c'mon. Let's not get all negative here.

I think, in part, we maybe need to reexamine what makes these settings and how we use certain aspects. I think slavery is one of those things used ad nauseum in fantasy worlds that it has basically trivialized it. In concept, everything I've been told about Dark Sun is very interesting, but the problem is that 1) We basically have the company that has to play safest owns the IP and 2) Every other fantasy RPG has devalued the idea of slavery so much that it's just... I dunno, a quest?

I mentioned Delta Green before as something that deals with a lot of real-world issues and can get very... well, there can be some very needed content warnings. But it also goes over that stuff and tries to deal with it in a way where it's the focus, which makes every op sort of a setting unto itself. D&D doesn't really play like that, and it really can't go into deep depth on the institutions of its worlds typically because there's a decent chance that the players won't interact with all of them. It feels like a problem with the concept of the game, not just the broadness of the audience.

And then my PC kills the naughty word out of those slavers and then I’m the hero that freed the elven slaves.

I mean, I'm always down to kill slavers. But also if that's the only way we're seeing and interacting with slavery in the world, we're kind of turning it into a theme park ride. If all slaves are are people to be saved, we're trivializing what slavery is.

This is part of the problem with these things. And maybe Dark Sun could be different in execution, where they handle these things in a realistic and adult fashion, where these sorts of things are put up front... but I just don't see that happening with Wizards of the Coast. And hey, sometimes it's best to know what you can't do and try to do what you can, hence adapting it in a way that is less fraught.

 

[Minigiant]

Again I think the issue isn't its existence in the work but its focus in the work.

Dark Sun has problematic stuff all over it.

FR's Underdark does too. But not the whole Underdark. And the surface isn't flooded with it as well. Menzoberranzan's awfulness is not Waterdeep or Neverwinter.

 

[Faolyn]

Or who have already fought back and been captured rather than killed. This was the case with many Roman slaves, for example - they were prisoners of war and-or members of a force (or culture, in some cases) that had lost to the Romans.

It's still an extremely uneven and unpleasant balance of power, for reasons that, quite frankly, can be expressed in many other ways which are often more interesting.

 

[overgeeked]

I will never understand “it can’t exist because some nut might get the wrong idea, use it as an excuse for bad behavior, or think about it in a way I don’t like” as an argument. Come on. People are not that fragile.

“I saw a boob on TV and now I’m a psycho killer. If only there were no boobs on the TV.” That’s not a real thing that happens.

Books, movies, and TV shows depict terrible things all the time. No one sane is screaming about how they’re corrupting the youth. “Bad stuff” has existed in media and entertainment since media and entertainment have existed. We’re still just as terrible as a species. Not worse. Not better.

Crazies are gonna crazy. Just because some nut picks up a copy of Catcher in the Rye and goes out and hurts people doesn’t mean we should ban Catcher in the Rye.

Look at history. Every group that’s ever tried to ban books has always been the bad guys.

“Won’t someone think of the children?!” I am. Stopping others from accessing things because you don’t like them is shortsighted and dangerous.

 

[Tonguez]

I looked through the adventure Freedom in which the PCs get ‘pressganged’ by the City of Tyr and forced to work. Its presented as slavery but the meagre rations, interspecies bullying and overseers push to increase output to meet quotas could just as easily be done with poor citizens and ‘foreign vassals’ - its what Egypt did afterall.

of course the adventure also has a scene where the PCs witness a group of slaves intent on killing a noble - the PCs have to choose to let it happen or to protect the noble - it was the one time I did frown at the implication that PCs killing the slaves is an option

 

[Mark Hope]

All these pages posted while I was asleep! Stop it!

To answer the very broad question, yes, of course there should be room for problematic content under the context of it being something you fight against. There are nuances here, but at its core, villains can be villainous and heroes can fight them because of it.

The idea that slavery in Dark Sun can't be fought or is just some kind of weird grimdark window dressing is completely baffling to me. The introductory adventure starts with the PCs as slaves and makes their escape the opening scene - it's presented wholly as evil. The elves who attack the caravan they're in (and it's not inadvertent according to the tie-in fiction) do so in revenge for the enslavement of their own people - fighting slavers is baked in from day one. The first full adventure is 100% about overthrowing a tyrannical regime through a slave revolt. The second adventure is about protecting your newly freed city from a neighbouring tyrant. The next one is about helping a good-aligned creature transform into a being that can begin healing the environmental damage to Athas. The one after that highlights how cruel a slave-holding society is through its ritual hunts of the enslaved - it's just presented as awful. It's not until the final adventure of the first run of modules that slavery stops being a central theme, because by that time the PCs are high enough level to start tackling some of the underlying issues (in this case an order of psionicists known as The Order). Like, it's right there, front and centre. This is what the designers presume you'll be doing. Later adventures explore other aspects of the setting but the evils of slavery and environmental collapse and why we should smash them are never far away.

I've been running Dark Sun since day one, have written for the setting, just wrapped a 40-episode streamed game set there and I have never seen a Dark Sun game where slavery was depicted as anything other than awful and something to be fought. We've had a slave owner in our game and it was a very compelling piece of fiction that allowed us to unpick the concept with care and real narrative weight. Yes, there are doubtless people who will use it to engage in awful behaviour but that can't be laid at the feet of the setting as presented. It's wholly and unashamedly opposed to slavery and the ills that come with it. It's written into the setting and published adventures very clearly and claiming otherwise just isn't supported by the material. So yes, there's room for this content in games. Slavery is not a thing of the past. It's happening right now. I just have to step outside and walk down the street to see a modern version of it in action, as does almost anyone using any electronic device or wearing clothes. I can do very little about that in my daily life but I very much appreciate the idea that we can address some of these issues through gameplay and (dare I say it) art.

 

[Mark Hope]

I looked through the adventure Freedom in which the PCs get ‘pressganged’ by the City of Tyr and forced to work. Its presented as slavery but the meagre rations, interspecies bullying and overseers push to increase output to meet quotas could just as easily be done with poor citizens and ‘foreign vassals’ - its what Egypt did afterall.

of course the adventure also has a scene where the PCs witness a group of slaves intent on killing a noble - the PCs have to choose to let it happen or to protect the noble - it was the one time I did frown at the implication that PCs killing the slaves is an option

To touch on the scene you mention, it's focus is more on displaying the cruelty of the sorcerer-king who throws two nobles into the slave pens after the complain that he has taken their slaves to build his Entirely Safe And Normal Ziggurat. A half-giant saved earlier by the PCs urges that the nobles be similarly treated with compassion. It's an interesting examination of how you treat slave owners who are themselves victims of an oppressive system. Whenever I've used this scene, the PCs either let the nobles die or use non-lethal means to protect them from the mob while arguing for compassion.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Again I think the issue isn't its existence in the work but its focus in the work.

Dark Sun has problematic stuff all over it.

FR's Underdark does too. But not the whole Underdark. And the surface isn't flooded with it as well. Menzoberranzan's awfulness is not Waterdeep or Neverwinter.

You also don't have FR fans just openly and blatantly admitting that slavery to them is an essential part of the setting. Like you aren't going to get away from downplaying it or ignoring it or blunting it. If you're going to sell to the people who want it, you're going to having to swing hard for the 'making a grand spectacle of human misery' fence.

 

[Mark Hope]

You also don't have FR fans just openly and blatantly admitting that slavery to them is an essential part of the setting. Like you aren't going to get away from downplaying it or ignoring it or blunting it. If you're going to sell to the people who want it, you're going to having to swing hard for the 'making a grand spectacle of human misery' fence.

Admitting that it's a core part of the setting isn't something to be ashamed of. You can have despicable evil in your fiction. You can have slavery and all manner of awfulness. And you can treat it sensibly and as something to be opposed. And then see that through in play. Just like the Dark Sun setting and its adventures do. No one is making a grand spectacle of human misery here.

 

[Lanefan]

No one is making a grand spectacle of human misery here.

Making a grand spectacle of Gnomish misery, on the other hand...

 

[Mark Hope]

Making a grand spectacle of Gnomish misery, on the other hand...

The Shadow King of Nibenay approves of this post

 

[Imaro]

That's not how Creative Commons works

I meant that along with WotC's precedent of releasing the campaign setting IP's on DM's Guild. Again my point being WotC wouldn't control what others chose to publish for it... IP wise or rules wise.

 

[overgeeked]

I meant that along with WotC's precedent of releasing the campaign setting IP's on DM's Guild. Again my point being WotC wouldn't control what others chose to publish for it... IP wise or rules wise.

It’s false that WotC has no control over their IP once opened on DM‘s Guild. WotC can and has told DM‘s Guild to pull things and the Guild has done so. The Guild also has community standards to fall back on. I linked them for you.

 

[Imaro]

It’s false that WotC has no control over their IP once opened on DM‘s Guild. WotC can and has told DM‘s Guild to pull things and the Guild has done so. The Guild also has community standards to fall back on. I linked them for you.

I looked over the community standards... and saw none that addressed my specific concern around slavery in Dark Sun and how some could choose to interact with it in their game, much less anything that would address it specifically outside of violence against children and sexual content... Also do you have examples of what WotC has had pulled from DM's Guild?

 

[delericho]

Q: Is problematic content acceptable in a work if it's presented as obviously and explicitly evil and meant to be fought?

IMO, problematic content is acceptable even if it isn't presented as obviously and explicitly evil and meant to be fought. Just label it appropriately (and, in movies and games, give it the appropriate certificate level). "He Man" and "Game of Thrones" are both valid expressions of fantasy.

 

[overgeeked]

I looked over the community standards... and saw none that addressed my specific concern around slavery in Dark Sun and how some could choose to interact with it in their game, much less anything that would address it specifically outside of violence against children and sexual content... Also do you have examples of what WotC has had pulled from DM's Guild?

You cannot and never will be able to control what other people do at their tables. Why are people so obsessed with that idea? Why is that the line? Someone somewhere might do something you don’t like therefore this cannot exist. It’s a ridiculous stance. People have freedom of speech. There’s a possibility someone will say something you don’t like. Do you want to eliminate freedom of speech to prevent them from saying things you don’t like? People have free will. Do you want to end that because they might do things you don’t like? The only things that get to exist are thing you personally deem acceptable and safe for others to interact with. Come on.

 

[Hussar]

I've read the thread and ok, let's get down to specifics. Everyone seems to be keeping pretty high altitude, but, I want to really pin down what we mean here.

So, @overgeeked, your premise is that it is acceptable to include problematic elements so long as it's presented as something to be fought against. Fair enough. Let's run with that.

In the first scene of our campaign, several slave children are being torn to death by goblins in a public square for edification of the onlookers who are taking bets on which slave child will die first. You are all 1st level PC's and if you try to intervene, the local guards will kill you. Sure, you might be able to come back in a few levels, but, you cannot possibly help these people.​

This would be acceptable in a D&D sourcebook published by WotC? Obviously not.

See, this is the problem right here. You want to include the "problematic material" but then run into the whole PG 13 version of the world that D&D and WotC presents. Which means any "problematic material" will always be whitewashed and sanitized. The horrors of slavery will never actually be on screen. The horrors of these various "problematic materials" cannot actually be added to the game.

And, let's be honest here, that example I wrote above is a very, very minor horror compared to the actual horrors of slavery. Or genocide. Or any other "problematic content".

So, no, I strongly oppose the idea that just because it's "something to fight" that using things like slavery or whatnot, is somehow something that WotC should be using as adventure ideas for the game. If you want to do that with your table, go right ahead. Nothing is stopping you. But, for WotC to try to deal with it in such a way that it's acceptable to millions of people? Not a chance.

 

[Imaro]

You cannot and never will be able to control what other people do at their tables. Why are people so obsessed with that idea? Why is that the line? Someone somewhere might do something you don’t like therefore this cannot exist. It’s a ridiculous stance. People have freedom of speech. There’s a possibility someone will say something you don’t like. Do you want to eliminate freedom of speech to prevent them from saying things you don’t like? People have free will. Do you want to end that because they might do things you don’t like? The only things that get to exist are thing you personally deem acceptable and safe for others to interact with. Come on.

Not sure what this has to do with my post but to answer your question... because there is a history of certain "free speech" being weaponized in America against certain people. Now what you do in private is your own business but since WotC is a publicly traded company and a large part of their marketing and promotion centers on public play efforts which is a different kettle than a privately hosted game... yes they do have to control what they print, with an eye towards how it can be used in a negative manner as well as what can be pointed at and laid at their feet, insofar as blame is concerned, when it comes to their products, brandand the things associated with them.

 

[overgeeked]

Not sure what this has to do with my post…

I looked over the community standards... and saw none that addressed my specific concern around slavery in Dark Sun and how some could choose to interact with it in their game

You want to have control over how other people play. You flat out say so. That’s what I was responding to.

but to answer your question... because there is a history of certain "free speech" being weaponized in America against certain people.

Yes. Unfortunately. That is true. The counter to that is more free speech, not less.