DarkMatter d20?

[vturlough]

How to do it?

ES: I am really curious as to how you think this will work.

I would *love* a good Alt to d20 conversion. The reason I don't think it can completely work is because of the simplicity of the d20 system.

In any game system, what you can and can't do are defined by the rules. (This affects role playing as well and hopefully that effect is minimized.) The d20 rules are simplistic enough that you don't get lots of variations with them. In words, it is black and white, make it or don't. To change that to anything else adds complexity.

The beauty of Alternity, or any other similar game, is that if it is in there, you can ignore it. You could have any Ordinary or higher result be a success, for example. If it isn't there, it is tougher to add in later. (DR instead of AC in DND - that causes a lot of headaches because then you have to do Defense instead. I have tried and just didn't want to add that level of complexity into the game.)

Having said all of that, I would love to see what you can do with a d20 Alternity conversion.

btw, I think Alternity was the natural precursor to 3E. Little things are there, in Alternity, that weren't in any previous TSR game, that were incorporated into 3E. Things like skills, status (stunned, deafened), effects of environment on status (GRAPH), equal "levels" being a equal challenge.

In general, and this is just me, I like to think that Alternity is what got TSR (and then Wotc) thinking along the lines of 3E in the first place.

Sorry for the rant.

turlough

 

[Blacksad]

It might interest some of you to know that Andy Collins hopes to be able to convert Dark Matter to d20 and that he is willing to discuss on the subject on his forum:

http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm9

PS: I also liked the alternity game system, though the rules for space travel weren't great in the Core Books.

 

[EarthsShadow]

Yeah, I agree that Alternity is the predecessor to 3E. I guess what bothers me is that WOTC did create, in my opinion, probably the absolute best dice system ever devised, and only because it wasn't called Dungeons and Dragons it didn't sell very well.

As for converting it over, I have lots of good ideas to try and keep it in the same flavor. The only two areas where I am getting caught up is using Achievements and Achievement points instead of just skill points, and with the Achievement points using them for the purchase of skills, feats, ability increases, and unique class abilities that only certain classes would be able to aquire.

I came up with this system of sorts, for now, and its based on the original Educational Level that you put your original points into. This idea also replaces the idea of different classes getting a different amount of skill points as in standard d20.

Each level you gain in a class, you get a number of Character or Achievement Points. The amount you get is based on the following factors:

Educational Level
Level Attained.
Int or Wis modifier - I believe that some people learn one way and some learn another way.

Educational Level
1/2
2/3
3/4
4/5
5/6
6/7
7/8
*number before slash is original points put into Educational level modified by class, number after slash is the number of character points you get each time you gain a level.

Class Level
This is the level you just attained.
2-3/1
4-6/2
7-9/3
10-12/4
13-15/5
16-18/6
19-20/7
*number before slash is level, number after slash is number of character points you get each time you gain a level.

Then add in either your INT modifier or your WIS modifier.

Remember that skills in this system, if your used to Alternity, don't increase on a 1 - 1 ratio. Skills are increased by paying incrementally for the next rank a number of points equal to that rank. So, to go from rank 3 to rank 4 costs 4 CP.

These points can be all spent at once, or saved over the course of time.

If your used to Alternity, then your also used to Achievements, which are unique and special abilities that a character can get by spending points for. In comparison, things like class abilities and feats, and ability increases in standard d20 are equivalent things.

With this, I would have a listing of special achievements that each class could get, and how much they cost. Combat related feats might cost a point less for the Combat Spec than the rest, while psionic feats would cost less for the Mindwalker than for anyone else getting them.

And just like in Alternity, I will classify all classes with two primary abilities, and when a person with that class wants to increase an ability, it will cost less points to increase a primary ability than a secondary ability.

Also, like in Alternity, I am including Flaws as part of character creation and development, and getting rid of Alignments altogether.

Also, like in alternity, because Alternity doesn't include increasing hit points, then this version will have a very limited ability to increase Vitality and Wound points also. So, yes it is possible to have a d20 game that doesn't have mass quantity of hit points.

Starting VP and WP are figured as follows (a work in progress):
VP = CON x 2 + initial class bonus
WP = CON

The only way to increase your health points now is by spending character points to get a achievement that will allow you to.

*NOTE: unlike the standard d20, because of the versatility and options available, and because its in the flavor of Alternity and Darkmatter, cross classing at this time I am recommending be not allowed. However, that could change.

 

[vturlough]

Ugh - It's not Alternity anymore, is it?

ES - Please don't take this as a rant against you. I think you are doing a good job.

What you are doing, though, isn't Alternity anymore, is it? You are creating a d20 game, using Alternity as the "template". In the end, though, no matter how good the conversion, it really won't be Alternity. It will be another d20 game.

I don't think that's good. I might not mind that Windows dominates the OSs, as far as personal users, but for game systems, while there might be a good set of rules that takes care of everything, d20 isn't it.

For example, I think the following things were very important in Alternity and I didn't see them. (Not saying you gave us the complete list, either.)

Stun/Wound/Mortal and Fatigue points.
Secondary damage.
Ability for anybody to learn anything with very, very, very few restrictions. (Psi in D*M was the only one, IIRC.)
"Level" seems to be more important here, although if things only go up by skill points, than it would be correct.
Complex skills checks.
Complex results (M/O/G/A)

Again, I am not ranting at you per se. I think you are doing as good a job as you can. "Converting" a game system though, does cause some losses, which is the style and feel of the game. I mean, what would Vampire:The Masquerade be like if it was d20? What about BattleTech? Shadowrun? Traveller? Elfquest? etc.

In the end, I do like SpyCraft and if I couldn't play Alternity, I would go with that. I really like the Action Dice and several other of the mechanic ideas in there.

I would rather play Alternity though. I would love it if it could be supported or go to some sort of OGL.

*sigh*

turlough

 

[EarthsShadow]

I agree...

I agree with you vturlough...in the end, it wouldn't be exactly the same, and if they OGL's Alternity rules system then that would be awesome, but they won't. In time, someone out there will do a complete conversion of Alternity, and well if it is bound to happen, it might as well be those of us who love the game.

Stun/Wound/Mortal and Fatigue points.

This could be possible instead of using vitality and wounds. Set Stun and Wound equal to CON x 1.5, Mortal equal to CON and Fatigue could be worked in somehow also.

Complex skills checks.

I think this is possible just by saying that a person is doing something so complex that they need to get a certain number of success within a certain length of time or else BOOM!... If a person rolls a critical success then it counts as two success, If a critical failure then something bad happens.

Complex results (M/O/G/A)

It might be possible with some skills, not all though, to set it up like this. Let's say a target number is 15. If you fail within 5, then its Marginal, success up to 25 is Ordinary, 26-30 is Good, 31+ is Amazing. Natural 20 is considered Amazing also.

The only instance in which this might not work is combat.

"Level" seems to be more important here, although if things only go up by skill points, than it would be correct.

Level is used to keep track of how many character points, or achievement points, a person gets. Then, once they get the Achievement points, they spend them on skills and achievements. In keeping with the flavor of Alternity, the current Feat and Ability system would have to be abolished and the only way to get extra's would be through the purchase of Achievements.

The only other thing I would add is that different classes would have their own unique special abilities that they can purchase achievements in.

Example: Tech Op - things like Skill Emphasis (in class skill), Research, Expert Piloting, Gadgets, Instant Skill Mastery in Primary Ability skill, Increased Learning, Tech Specialty, Jury-rig specialties, Adaptability (getting a cross-class skill as a class skill), Bonus Feat (from a select list).

Free Agent - things like Skill Emphasis (in class skill), Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Heart - Focus (using SW term for now), Lucky, Precise Attack, Increased Learning, Fast Movement, Improvisation, Lead, Intuition, Adaptability (getting a cross-class skill as a class skill), Bonus Feat (from a select list).

So, these classes will be different, but unique and versatile, and I will also plan on including careers that have select skill packages and equipment packages to show this off.

In the end, though, it would be a d20 version of the game and not the same game, but at least it won't be a standard d20 game either and it will break the mold that d&d 3rd edition has set for us to follow.

 

[Desdichado]

Seems to me that Call of Cthulhu might be better for Dark Matter than Spycraft. IMO.

As to the other question, I don't have patience for systems other than d20 anymore. d20 works well, everyone knows it, you can find players easily... why would I want another system? As CoC in particular shows, with minor tweaks, you can do vastly different genres with it.

 

[evildmguy]

Good point

JD: Good point about CoC. It is a very different game while still using the d20 rules.

I am just not sure that one system can do it. Having said that, having played most of the CCGs that DIED, I do agree with you that it is nice to have a supported game.

I think what I more like is when d20 games play off of each other and help improve themselves. In other words, things that you can take back to DND or CoC or SpyCraft to make them better.

I agree with whoever said that in Alternity, it is the situation die that was tough to understand. (Knowing that will make it easier the next time I GM it.) I think after that, though, things are easy. That's me, though.

The good thing about a "dead" RPG is that I have everything and that makes it simpler. I don't have to worry about new canon materials coming out. Heck, isn't that what Greyhawk people always did until Wars?

I just miss Alternity as a company supported system. (The online is pretty good.)

Thanks!

edg

 

[Desdichado]

If you have a group that plays Alternity, and don't have a problem with it, and you know you're group is going to be together for the foreseeable future, then great!

But for me, who's moved recently, started new groups, and not had any luck finding groups I like for anything other than d20, the reality is, I'm playing d20.

And, I like the system. It's relatively elegant, it's easily cusomizable (and already quite customized, if you pick up a few different books) so I can see it doing just about any genre I could imagine I would want to play without too much trouble.

Now don't get me wrong, Alternity was a good system with a lot of things I liked, but d20 has most of those same things I liked as well, so I don't really mourn it's passing that much.

 

[EarthsShadow]

I haven't really looked into CoC, so could someone explain what's all involved in that game. All I really know is that playing the game can be fun, but extremely hard to get characters above 3rd level, or something like that.

 

[vturlough]

Thought on VP/WP

Okay, this fudges things but it might give some Alternity flavor to d20.

Stun Points = Subdual damage
Wound points = Hit Points
Mortal points = Wound points (if vp/wp used)

Now, what I was thinking is that a character isn't knocked out when subdual > hit points. Instead you get subdual up to max hit points. Probably don't want to do that if they can gain hps (vp/wp) every level.

Then, at half subdual = -2 to all rolls. Cumulative with other penalties.
At half hit points = -2 to all rolls. Cumulative with other penalties.
For every mortal point it equal -2 to all rolls. Cumulative with other penalties.

Fatigue - Not sure about this. You could come up with a half con "meter" of fatigue and given everything else, it probably wouldn't be that much.

Secondary - Yes.
hit point damage = half subdual (again, probably get to go up to max hit points before KO or this will happen twice as fast as it should)
wound = equal hit point and subdual damage.

So, assuming some restriction on hit points, if a character had 20 hit points, they also have 20 stun point. Getting hit for 8 points wound (might be reduced with DR or whatever you use) still causes 4 points subdual. At 11 points damage, the character is at -2 to all rolls. At 11 points subdual, also a -2.

Perhaps a Fortitude save vs DC 20 when subdual > max hit points to stay awake?
Fortitude save vs DC 25 when wounds are gone to stay awake?
I am not sure about these. I like them but, as with any saves, these are tough saves for low level characters and relatively easy ones for high level. (Don't know how you are doing saves. Spend points on saves? or points on a save table?)

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

Thanks!

turlough