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Darkness+Devil's Sight is killing my campaign

KarinsDad said:
Perhaps. But assuming a party of 4 15th level NPCs versus a party of 4 15th level PCs where one of them is a Warlock, not even using any of his other powers, a Warlock could easily take out virtually any single arcane caster NPC on the other side in 2 rounds (in round one if he gets surprise and his initiative roll is higher than his target).

15th level NPC Sorcerer with average 53 hit points (Con 12) gets hit twice for 28 points on average from the 15th level PC Warlock and is unconscious (assuming the Warlock did not critical the first attack and take him out with 16D6 in a single blow). Ranged touch attacks are pretty darn easy at high level.

Average damage-wise, one Warlock is like having two Archer type fighters on your side. Sure, he might not be able to throw Fireballs and seriously injure multiple opponents in a single attack like the arcane casters, but one on one he is awesome.

If the opposing group has spell casters, I'd prefer to have a Warlock on my team. If the opposing group does not have spell casters, I'd prefer to have an arcane spell caster on my team.

You would think, but you'd be surprised what can happen "according to the initiative rules".

Yeah, and a normal 15th level arcane caster also 2 shots the enemy sorcercer with Scorching Ray. The lesson here isn't "Warlocks are overpowered," it's "d4 classes need to boost their Con scores." How many 15th level characters can't do 52 damage given almost 2 rounds in a row?
 

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Victim said:
Yeah, and a normal 15th level arcane caster also 2 shots the enemy sorcercer with Scorching Ray. The lesson here isn't "Warlocks are overpowered," it's "d4 classes need to boost their Con scores." How many 15th level characters can't do 52 damage given almost 2 rounds in a row?

Assuming the Sorcerer does not have some form of protection from fire (or globe of invulnerability up or spell resistance up) at 15th level.

There are very few protections from (higher level) EBs except spell resistance and even that can be sidestepped by Vitriolic Blast (doing 13D6 average instead of 7D6 at 15th level). Concealment miss chance (or equivalents like Mirror Image) is also helpful against it.

But, he can do Eldritch Chain Vitriolic Blast for 13D6 against up to 4 targets (eventually, 7D6 on round one, plus 2D6 for 3 rounds after that). Every single round. No save for half damage. No spell resistance. And a fairly high chance of success because it is a ranged touch attack. And if the ranged touch attack against any of the targets is in his threat range, a very good chance of doing 26D6 (assuming no way to get the acid off or neutralized) against that target. Now, the acid damage can be minimized with Resist Elements Acid (or even neutralized with Protection From Elements Acid for a short period), but this is still more potent than Scorching Ray (or even most area affect damage spells in most circumstances).

13D6 can take out a Barbarian in 4 to 5 rounds. A high CON wizard in 3 rounds (since he can do 7D6 on round one, 9D6 on round two, 11D6 on round three, up to a maximum of 13D6 on round four if he keeps hitting, but the overall average will still be 13D6 per round). Plus, with the extra acid on later rounds, opponents tend to die if they fall unconscious unless they get help.

Granted, there is only a 4.75% (5% * 95% chance of making the threat roll assuming a 95% chance of hitting each of their touch ACs) chance of doing 26D6 this way per target, but when firing at up to 4 targets per round, the odds are in your favor that it will happen in maybe a third of the battles at least once (the odds in one round with 4 such targets are 4.75% + 4.5125% + 4.286875% + 4.07253125% = 17.6% or one round in six).

Btw, at 16th level he can Empower Eldritch Chain Vitriolic Blast 3 times per day and do an average of 19.5D6 against up to four targets (39D6 if he criticals). Imagine this in a surprise round by the NPC Warlock. Four PCs have only taken 38 points of damage on average (assuming he did not critical any of them), but they have 3 more rounds of 10 points each round and if he wins initiative, the NPC Warlock can do it a second time before any of the PCs can react. That's 86 points of damage per PC and still more to come. Mass Cure Critical by the PC Cleric, and even then, the PCs are in trouble (unless the PC Cleric is 17th level and can do Mass Heal).


Plus, Warlocks at 12th level can make virtually any magic item they wish.


The jury is still out, but with a good set of other invocations, I can see a Warlock as a killing machine. Plus, I consider them more potent at lower levels than higher levels relative to their level. The chances of them surviving to get to higher level seem better than most other classes.


However, I do see your point. It takes time for him to dish out his damage and some other arcane spell casters can dish it out a little bit quicker (abet with saving throws and spell resistance rolls). But still, ...
 

atom crash said:
I could be wrong here, but I thought it was established that grappling a Warlock renders him ineffective. Even more so that casters.

Yes, I wrote that before I noticed the somatic component rule.

Hence, the reason for the "Flee the Scene" invocation (along with other concealing ones).

Actually, a level of Monk (taking Improved Grapple) or using up two feats to get Improved Grapple would seem prudent since this is a major weakness.
 

The "problem" of the Warlock at higher levels is, that the effects are smaller than those from arcane casters, but arcane casters also do not run out of spells in a given day, usually.

Might happen once or twice in a campaign, but that's it at that level.

Bye
Thanee
 

I go with Thanee on this, the Warlock seems seriously underpowered on higher levels. You do have a steady damage output, but you can't compare it to, say, the wizards maximized firebrands (better yet, take a level of Archmage and make them sonic). The mage will run out of his powerfull spells in about 10 rounds, but by the time everything will be dead. Never had a fight longer than 5-6 rounds on high levels. Of course, the Warlock can simply go on to from encounter to encounter, but how about the rest of the party? Clerics need to rest too... This, and their few powers seem to make the Warlock not that effective at higher levels, especially when the party is confronted with differing situations. They make good NPC's though...
 

For those of you who think the warlock over powered:

Use one as a recurring NPC villian....and just change his "look" a bit so it's just SLAs instead of "invocations". (Window dressing, really.) The players will never know you are trying out a new class.
 

Nail said:
For those of you who think the warlock over powered:

Use one as a recurring NPC villian....and just change his "look" a bit so it's just SLAs instead of "invocations". (Window dressing, really.) The players will never know you are trying out a new class.

SLAs???


Actually, I just view him as a semi-Bard (without music) and with basically the equivalent of unlimited (both with respect to max damage and max times per day) Magic Missiles. So, stronger than a Bard at all levels, stronger than a Wizard/Sorcerer or Fighter type at lower levels, but less powerful than Wizards/Sorcerers/Cleric/Druid at higher levels (but still above most Fighter types in many respects at higher levels).

Almost an inverse of the normal power progression relative to other classes, he seems to kick butt at lower level, but then just seems to fade away towards Fighter type power levels at higher level. Which is good for a reoccurring NPC villain because he can survive to fight another day and the PCs will eventually outgrow him (on their way to greater challenges). :cool:


PS. As long as his damage is D6 regardless of race (unlike weapon damage), might as well make any NPC Warlock Reoccurring Villain a Halfling (or even for a PC Warlock) since his strength is in number of rounds fighting (i.e. he will need to outlast opponents) and getting that +2 to hit with EB, +2 to AC, and +1 on all saves (+2 on Reflex saves) will sometimes keep him alive long enough to wipe his opponents. Just a tad better offensively and defensively than those around him.
 

Frankly, I think the party walking around with devils sight and deeper darkness is barely adequate revenge for the fact that of all the creatures in the game, only halflings and humans do not have low light sight or better. Tell me that players are not supposed to be screwed by bad lighting conditions. Turning that around is just an awesome tactic.
 

reanjr said:
Is there no one who just enforces the HP rules? I mean, yeah, low HP is a detriment and that's why players have the option to take average. If you choose not to take average and you roll a 1, then why are you complaining? I always take average at 2nd level and roll from then on. Gives you a good start, but maintains the high average over a long career.
/me raises hand

The DM of my weekly game lets us choose to roll or to take half maximum (first level is maximum hitpoints for both variants). I always roll.
 

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