Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Panzeh]

For what it's worth, i kinda find the torch management to be more of a pain than it's worth- one logistically inclined player can basically make it no big deal, same as rations, water, etc. I've heard a pretty good argument that the best way to keep people from dallying in a dungeon in OSR type games is just have time be taken and use the wandering monster table to pressure the HP of players, because HP is not so trivially recovered in OSR, then you can kinda kick the other resources to the curb, which is easier on others involved.

 

[Reynard]

For what it's worth, i kinda find the torch management to be more of a pain than it's worth- one logistically inclined player can basically make it no big deal, same as rations, water, etc. I've heard a pretty good argument that the best way to keep people from dallying in a dungeon in OSR type games is just have time be taken and use the wandering monster table to pressure the HP of players, because HP is not so trivially recovered in OSR, then you can kinda kick the other resources to the curb, which is easier on others involved.

It's not an either-or situation. They are tied together. Light and encumbrance impact how time is spent, which leads directly into wandering monsters.

 

[Panzeh]

It's not an either-or situation. They are tied together. Light and encumbrance impact how time is spent, which leads directly into wandering monsters.

I can sometimes see how this plays out, but my experience has taught me players can only track so much, so either a logistically-inclined player trivializes it, or the group forgets it and the GM acquiesces because it would feel like a gotcha to people who don't have such a player. It's a lot to track.

But also, i'm not really sure light affects time management- either you have enough torches/oil, or you don't, and if you don't, you just don't go into a dungeon. Encumbrance is a bit different, but after one hit of the difficulty either they ignore heavy treasures or once again, a player with an inclination toward logistics gets porters and/or a pack mule and it's not a big problem any more.

 

[Bill Zebub]

One thing that always rubbed me wrong way is prevalent use of torches. Oil lamps were thing way back in the ancient Greece and Rome. Romans and Byzantines even made metal oil lamps. Sure, you need to carry it, but it still beats torches. And let's be honest, tech in most fantasy settings is way ahead.

Torches make for more flavorful artwork.

 

[Bill Zebub]

But also, i'm not really sure light affects time management- either you have enough torches/oil, or you don't, and if you don't, you just don't go into a dungeon.

Which is why you also need unpredictable torch-snuffing events.

 

[Reynard]

Which is why you also need unpredictable torch-snuffing events.

In a Shadowdark game, I had the party fight some shadows who could use an action to blow out a torch.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So you're discounting the value of torch-logistics. That's fine - what about:

• Exploring areas? Entering a room and immediately seeing all of its exits does a bit to reduce "exploring" to just "walking."
• Fighting monsters? It's one thing to see and prepare to fight the withered, shambling ice wraith in the creepy glow of your bloodsight (so-called for its sub-red hues of infrared). It's another thing to be squinting into the darkness past your torchlight when an uncanny, long hiss comes from up ahead, and you realize there's an unearthly chill crawling up your hand and threatening to put your torch out.
• Working around traps? The torch-wielding character says, "do you hear that clicking? It sounds mechanical*. Is it a steam-golem? Some kind of device? Did we set it off, or does it always sound like that? Should we get closer and find out?" The darkvision character says, "oh, look. A clockwork trap. Thief, get up there and disarm it. Carefully."

In each of these cases, we're only talking about one single difference between torchlight and darkvision-- distance.

With darkvision (or whatever ability in other non-D&D games have that allow characters to "see in the dark")... you mention noticing doors, monsters that are out of range, and the mechanics of traps that you can't see. Darkvision allows you to "see further" underground than torchlight does. Which yes, I would agree with you-- like if we are talking specifically D&D 5E darkvision, that goes out to 60 feet for most of the species that have it (giving us 60' of "dim light" conditions), whereas torches give us a radius of 20 feet in "bright light" and 20-40 feet in "dim light". So darkvision gives characters an extra 20 further feet for noticing things. Of course once we introduce the hooded lantern to the party, that gives us 30 feet of "bright light" and 30-60 feet of "dimlight" for non-darkvision species... meaning that the distances at which parties with hooded lanterns and ones made entirely with darkvision can see out to the exact same distance-- and the hooded lantern group also gets the benefit of 30 of bright light which the darkvision party in total darkness doesn't get.

Which means that mechanically... if you want to notice as many things as possible you are better off using hooded lanterns than you are relying on just darkvision. In fact, a darkvision character would actually do better with a lantern because they then see the 30-60 feet of dim light as "bright light" too... meaning their entire 60' of vision is bright light conditions, rather their entire 60' as dim light conditions if there were no light sources at all.

But again... this is purely from a game mechanics perspective. From a game mechanics perspective... it is my opinion that darkvision does not actually accomplish all that much over regular lantern-lighted vision... all you get is an extra 30 feet of "bright light" with a lantern that "regular" species won't get. Now obviously I can't speak for anyone else and how they run their games... but I know for me personally, I don't run my games where I have specifically designed my dungeons and marked out the distances of monsters/traps/doors in such a way that I can "catch" the non-darkvision species unawares all the time. Like I don't purposefully make chambers always over 30' long just in order to "gotcha" the party because now that door at the far end in "dim light" has a harder time to be seen by the non-darkvision PC in front when they enter the chamber (having to roll a Perception check with Disadvantage). That kind of nitpickiness of design is way, way, way too much to bother with. I just make a dungeon and fill it with interesting stuff... but I don't waste my time trying to guess who is going to be standing where when as they move through the dungeon and thus whether that stuff will be seen in bright light by darkvision-PCs with lanterns out to 60' and non-darkvision-PCs out to 30'... or dim light by non-darkvision-PCs holding lanterns from 30'-60' or darkvision-PCs with no light sources altogether... all in an effort to "surprise" the characters unexpectedly.

If I want to surprise the PCs that badly... then it is much easier to just do that narratively. And when you do it narratively, you can put in whatever the heck you want to bypass any vision-based game mechanics the players would default to (like the smoke screen idea posted further up) and thus the mechanics of darkvision no longer matter.

 

[Thomas Shey]

IMO, Encumbrance works best when:

• It's based on number of items, not weight (possibly with some items taking up multiple slots, and some zero)
• The number of slots is pretty small.

At that point it's not a lot of bookkeeping, and it forces some interesting decisions about what to carry. And that's when tracking light sources can also become interesting, and not just burdensome, as long as the other rules around light and vision are well designed.

This is more-or-less the tact the mildly obscure game Swordbearer took with it some years ago. You had a number of "things" you could pack and keep track of and it wasn't really based on weight or bulk per se.

 

[Thomas Shey]

One thing that always rubbed me wrong way is prevalent use of torches. Oil lamps were thing way back in the ancient Greece and Rome. Romans and Byzantines even made metal oil lamps. Sure, you need to carry it, but it still beats torches. And let's be honest, tech in most fantasy settings is way ahead.

Torches have the virtue that they're cheap, to the point you can make them yourself without any special skill if you have the resources. That's the only real reason for them.

 

[Argyle King]

And how does any of that have an impact on the mechanics of Dungeons & Dragons dungeon-crawling?

Yes, I agree in the "real world" a force with night vision goggles has an advantage over a force that does not. But we are referencing D&D and the mechanics therein. What is gained by a party entirely made up of characters with darkvision that isn't gained by a party that uses light sources? (Other than the distance enemy creatures have to be away from the PC before they are within sight range, as I mentioned upthread?) Did you read the entire thread before responding to my first post, because I went into far greater detail in subsequent posts.

I intentionally skipped over reading the rest of the thread so as to illustrate the importance of being able to see what others cannot.

In a limited visibility environment (such as in a dungeon,) being able to see without light sources is even more of an advantage. Ambush, stealth, and surprise can heavily tilt combat in one side's favor.

Even outside of combat, having a hand free that would otherwise need to be holding a light source is helpful.