Darkvision through a telescope

[Branduil]

It does. It's in the spot rules, and the chart for DCs for skills, and the DMG.

Tell me, what does DC 0 to notice a large object in plain sight mean to you, if there is no need to hit a DC at all? How can there be any question that you need to roll a spot check for things in plain sight, once you saw that chart?

And I'll ask again...can your character notice an ant in plain view 1000 yards away? If not, why not, given you believe there are no rolls necessary to spot something in plain view, regardless of distance and size?

Notice that the PHB chart does not specify a distance for the check to notice a large object in plain sight. It's deliberately vague, because the distance is irrelevant. It's merely saying that, unless you're basically blind, you cane see large objects in plain sight. Noticing the moon on a cloudless night would be a DC 0 spot check.

Now you are the one making up straw men. I never said anything about spotting an ant. The only point I've been trying to make is there is no such thing as an absolute limit to normal sight, so to try and compare it to Darkvision in that aspect is wrong, and a Telescope can no more extend the range of Darkvision than it can make Darkvision technicolor. Frankly the Spot skill is a red herring to this discussion. There are only two important factors:

1)There is no absolute limit to normal vision.

2)There is an absolute limit to Darkvision.

We can therefore decisively state that Darkvision is NOT like normal vision in this respect.

Furthermore, telescopes do not work by extending your range of vision, as that is a meaningless concept for normal vision. They merely make things twice as large, and thus easier to see. Therefore, telescopes cannot extend the range of Darkvision; that's not how telescopes work. I guess you could see the nothingness past 60 feet twice as large.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Furthermore, telescopes do not work by extending your range of vision, as that is a meaningless concept for normal vision. They merely make things twice as large, and thus easier to see. Therefore, telescopes cannot extend the range of Darkvision; that's not how telescopes work. I guess you could see the nothingness past 60 feet twice as large.

Mistwell has already said that if we consider a telescope to effectively double the size of what you're looking at, he wouldn't let it increase Darkvision's range. He also said that if we consider a telescope to double the distance you can see, he would.

So as long as you consider a telescope to effectively double the size of what you're looking at, you're in agreement with Mistwell.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

Notice that the PHB chart does not specify a distance for the check to notice a large object in plain sight. It's deliberately vague, because the distance is irrelevant.

No it's deliberately vague because, just like everything else on that chart, it's just an example and you have to look to the skill description itself for the details. Distance is not irrelevant for spot checks. That much is clear in the spot skill description.

It's merely saying that, unless you're basically blind, you cane see large objects in plain sight. Noticing the moon on a cloudless night would be a DC 0 spot check.

Again, please, no more moon, planet, star, or city references. You know, I know, and everyone knows this is a rule for encounters and not role playing color.

Your intepretation of that rule does not match the DMG description or the spot skill description. The weight of the evidence is on my side that a spot check is called for to start an encounter at a distance. Simply trying to fiat over all those rules without responding to it isn't compelling (at least it's not to me).

Now you are the one making up straw men. I never said anything about spotting an ant.

It's not a straw man and I never said you brought it up. I brought it up as a counter example to your examples. Could you answer the question, like I have patiently answered yours? If an ant is in plain view, 1000 yards away, can you see it without a spot check or can't you? The logical extension of your view is that no check is required, or the check is against a DC 0, because it's in plain view regardless of distance or size (hence the DC would be 0 in your view). If that is not correct, explain why.

The only point I've been trying to make is there is no such thing as an absolute limit to normal sight,

But there is. I understand that's the point you were trying to make, I just disagree with it, and have presented rules as to why I disagree with it. I'm really not sure at this point why you think there is a maximum sight limit to see someone hiding, but not a maximum sight limit to start an encounter.

so to try and compare it to Darkvision in that aspect is wrong, and a Telescope can no more extend the range of Darkvision than it can make Darkvision technicolor. Frankly the Spot skill is a red herring to this discussion. There are only two important factors:

1)There is no absolute limit to normal vision.

There is, however. And it's in the spot skill. You can call it a red herring all you want, but it's the issue at hand. The -1 to checks per 10' has some meaning. The DC to spot something in plain sight has some meaning. The DMG rule that calls for spot checks to determine when an encounter starts has some meaning.

2)There is an absolute limit to Darkvision.

We can therefore decisively state that Darkvision is NOT like normal vision in this respect.

Except it is, in the respect that you still need to deal with the maximum range for normal vision part of this debate.

Furthermore, telescopes do not work by extending your range of vision, as that is a meaningless concept for normal vision.

It's not a meaningless concept for game rules however. We need to decide if it makes things larger, and thus the spot check easier, or it extends the maximum distance, which effectively makes the spot check easier for objects in closer range.

They merely make things twice as large, and thus easier to see. Therefore, telescopes cannot extend the range of Darkvision; that's not how telescopes work. I guess you could see the nothingness past 60 feet twice as large.

I understand that part of your position, and I agree it's one reasonable interpretation of how to apply the x2 magnification effect of the spy glass. I just think there is another reasonable interpretation, and the OP seemed to be asking if anyone could think of a reasonable interpretation of the existing rules that would allow that sort of thing to work.

 

[Branduil]

No it's deliberately vague because, just like everything else on that chart, it's just an example and you have to look to the skill description itself for the details. Distance is not irrelevant for spot checks. That much is clear in the spot skill description.

Distance is irrelevant if the object is large relative to your viewpoint and in plain sight. That's why it's DC 0.

Again, please, no more moon, planet, star, or city references. You know, I know, and everyone knows this is a rule for encounters and not role playing color.

What if I wanted to make a check for the PCs to notice something like the moon changing color because it's a cursed night, or something similar? By your interpretation it is impossible.

It's not a straw man and I never said you brought it up. I brought it up as a counter example to your examples. Could you answer the question, like I have patiently answered yours? If an ant is in plain view, 1000 yards away, can you see it without a spot check or can't you? The logical extension of your view is that no check is required, or the check is against a DC 0, because it's in plain view regardless of distance or size (hence the DC would be 0 in your view). If that is not correct, explain why.

No, unless it is a large dire ant or something. It is a strawman because you're making up a ridiculous example instead of addressing my claim, which is that you can see relatively large things at any distance.

But there is. I understand that's the point you were trying to make, I just disagree with it, and have presented rules as to why I disagree with it. I'm really not sure at this point why you think there is a maximum sight limit to see someone hiding, but not a maximum sight limit to start an encounter.

You have not shown that Spot can only be used for encounters. What if I want to know if any of the PCs notice a glow on the night horizon from a town several miles away that's being burned and sacked by goblin raiders?

There is, however. And it's in the spot skill. You can call it a red herring all you want, but it's the issue at hand. The -1 to checks per 10' has some meaning. The DC to spot something in plain sight has some meaning. The DMG rule that calls for spot checks to determine when an encounter starts has some meaning.

Give me book and page number where they ever mention anything about an absolute range limit to normal vision. Distance modifiers are countered by size modifiers.

I understand that part of your position, and I agree it's one reasonable interpretation of how to apply the x2 magnification effect of the spy glass. I just think there is another reasonable interpretation, and the OP seemed to be asking if anyone could think of a reasonable interpretation of the existing rules that would allow that sort of thing to work.

I disagree in that I do not think it is reasonable to interpret the rules in such a way that results in it being impossible for PCs to notice a burning town miles way or the moon changing color slightly. Distance modifiers are always countered by size modifiers, so there's no such thing as an absolute limit to normal vision.

 

[Elethiomel]

If seeing the Dragon was the start of the encounter (it isn't by the way in most games - unless you actually go to the melee grid to move a mile until you arrive, all while in initiative). Unless your spot check was high enough, if it were the encounter, then absolutely correct.

Combine seeing the mile-distant city-attacking Dragon to the ability for people to shoot 1500+ feet with Far Shot and a Composite Longbow.

And where does verisimilitude go when you remember that common people in the Age of Exploration were able to see the sails of an incoming ship before the hull was over the horizon?

I have a really hard time accepting the rules on spot checks as the maximum distance you can see something that is in plain view unless the size of the object alter the DC in a multiplicative fashion.

[Edit: ]
("there isn't an absolute limit on normal vision")

There is, however. And it's in the spot skill. You can call it a red herring all you want, but it's the issue at hand. The -1 to checks per 10' has some meaning. The DC to spot something in plain sight has some meaning. The DMG rule that calls for spot checks to determine when an encounter starts has some meaning.

That's a variable limit. The limit on a given character's Darkvision is absolute, not variable.

 

[Mistwell]

Distance is irrelevant if the object is large relative to your viewpoint and in plain sight. That's why it's DC 0.



What if I wanted to make a check for the PCs to notice something like the moon changing color because it's a cursed night, or something similar? By your interpretation it is impossible.



No, unless it is a large dire ant or something. It is a strawman because you're making up a ridiculous example instead of addressing my claim, which is that you can see relatively large things at any distance.



You have not shown that Spot can only be used for encounters. What if I want to know if any of the PCs notice a glow on the night horizon from a town several miles away that's being burned and sacked by goblin raiders?



Give me book and page number where they ever mention anything about an absolute range limit to normal vision. Distance modifiers are countered by size modifiers.



I disagree in that I do not think it is reasonable to interpret the rules in such a way that results in it being impossible for PCs to notice a burning town miles way or the moon changing color slightly. Distance modifiers are always countered by size modifiers, so there's no such thing as an absolute limit to normal vision.

Enough with the point by point, given you avoided my question a second time.

What is the DC to spot a fine sized creature a mile away out in the open and not hiding. Creatures can be fine sized, and be a foe. So forget the ant and insert your favorite fine sized creature. Now please, answer the question. It's relevant to both our positions.

 

[Mistwell]

Combine seeing the mile-distant city-attacking Dragon to the ability for people to shoot 1500+ feet with Far Shot and a Composite Longbow.

And where does verisimilitude go when you remember that common people in the Age of Exploration were able to see the sails of an incoming ship before the hull was over the horizon?

I have a really hard time accepting the rules on spot checks as the maximum distance you can see something that is in plain view unless the size of the object alter the DC in a multiplicative fashion.

[Edit: ]
("there isn't an absolute limit on normal vision")


That's a variable limit. The limit on a given character's Darkvision is absolute, not variable.

Yes, it's variable from character to character, and object to object, and circumstance to circumstance (which I said earlier). However, for any given character, object/creature, and circumstances, there is a fixed maximum range you can notice something. Same goes for many uses of Darkvision as well. I gave the example of the drow vs. the human, and BOTH could only see 100' for their average roll, regardless of whether they used darkvision or normal vision.

 

[Branduil]

Enough with the point by point, given you avoided my question a second time.

What is the DC to spot a fine sized creature a mile away out in the open and not hiding. Creatures can be fine sized, and be a foe. So forget the ant and insert your favorite fine sized creature. Now please, answer the question. It's relevant to both our positions.

As the rules are fairly ambiguous on spotting things out in the open, I would start from the one rule we do have: DC 0 check to see something large out in the open. Large is not defined in this context, so I'd have make an assumption. Something like a full moon on a cloudless night would be DC 0. So things smaller than that would be harder to see. We're basically in DM fiat territory here. Let's say it's a black bug on a while wall 1 mile away. The way I would adjust the DC for size is this: A creature or object 1/4 the size of a DC 0 object would have a +4 bonus to DC for DC 4, while a creature or object 4 times as large would have a -4 modifier, for DC -4. For every quartering or quadrupling of size, I would multiply by 4. So if a creature is 1/4 of 1/4 the size of a DC 0 object, it would be a DC 16 spot check to see.

Rather unscientifically, I would guess that a Colossal-sized creature not hiding a mile away would be DC 0. Also unscientifically, I'll simplify and say that each step down in size is equal to being a creature or object 1/4 smaller. So, 4x4x4x4x4x4x4= 4^7= DC 16,384 to see a fine sized creature a mile away. Sounds about right.

Of course in reality I would never have my players makes such a spot check anyway. And it is irrelevant to the question of whether or not there is such a thing as a maximum range for normal vision.

 

[Mistwell]

As the rules are fairly ambiguous on spotting things out in the open, I would start from the one rule we do have: DC 0 check to see something large out in the open. Large is not defined in this context, so I'd have make an assumption. Something like a full moon on a cloudless night would be DC 0. So things smaller than that would be harder to see. We're basically in DM fiat territory here. Let's say it's a black bug on a while wall 1 mile away. The way I would adjust the DC for size is this: A creature or object 1/4 the size of a DC 0 object would have a +4 bonus to DC for DC 4, while a creature or object 4 times as large would have a -4 modifier, for DC -4. For every quartering or quadrupling of size, I would multiply by 4. So if a creature is 1/4 of 1/4 the size of a DC 0 object, it would be a DC 16 spot check to see.

OK, so finally, we both agree that a spot check can be used for things out in the open that are not hiding, and that the DC varies based on size and is not just a fixed DC of 0. Glad we got that out of the way. I don't think it is ambiguous like you do, or DM fiat (we know what a large sized object is - it is defined in the rules as anything taking up a 10' square), and we know the modifiers for sized (you can find the chart in multiple places), so it's just the same analysis and DM does for any skill check with a high variety of potential uses. But regardless, we both agree that spot is used to see objects out in the open, and the check is modified by size.

The other question however is the fact that the creature is a mile away as opposed to a foot in front of you. Is it harder to see a fine sized creature a mile away than a fine sized creature in the square next to you, or isn't it? I think the answer to that is obvious, as are the rules (in the spot skill - which is the skill we both agree is used to make the check).

Rather unscientifically, I would guess that a Colossal-sized creature not hiding a mile away would be DC 0. Also unscientifically, I'll simplify and say that each step down in size is equal to being a creature or object 1/4 smaller. So, 4x4x4x4x4x4x4= 4^7= DC 16,384 to see a fine sized creature a mile away. Sounds about right.

Of course in reality I would never have my players makes such a spot check anyway. And it is irrelevant to the question of whether or not there is such a thing as a maximum range for normal vision.

It's relevant once we get to the spot rules for making those checks, which include a modifier for distance.

 

[Branduil]

OK, so finally, we both agree that a spot check can be used for things out in the open that are not hiding, and that the DC varies based on size and is not just a fixed DC of 0. Glad we got that out of the way. I don't think it is ambiguous like you do, or DM fiat (we know what a large sized object is - it is defined in the rules as anything taking up a 10' square), and we know the modifiers for sized (you can find the chart in multiple places), so it's just the same analysis and DM does for any skill check with a high variety of potential uses. But regardless, we both agree that spot is used to see objects out in the open, and the check is modified by size.

The other question however is the fact that the creature is a mile away as opposed to a foot in front of you. Is it harder to see a fine sized creature a mile away than a fine sized creature in the square next to you, or isn't it? I think the answer to that is obvious, as are the rules (in the spot skill - which is the skill we both agree is used to make the check).



It's relevant once we get to the spot rules for making those checks, which include a modifier for distance.

Looking more closely at the rules, it says "a penalty applies on such checks." What does it mean by such checks? Spot checks to determine the beginning of an encounter. In other words, only in this specific use of the spot skill does the penalty apply. It says nothing about a penalty for opposed Hide checks, or spotting things father in the distance. And it seems this use of spot checks is entirely optional: "The Dungeon Master MAY call for spot checks."

So really I don't see how this optional use of the spot skill relates to the telescope argument at all.