Darkvision through a telescope

[chriton227]

Looking at a pirate ship in the dark with only one lantern on deck, using a spyglass and darkvision.

Does the darkvision help?

First off, I apologize to the OP for getting off topic in my previous post.

Let me make sure I understand the situation correctly: A character with darkvision is observing a pirate ship using a spyglass. The pirate ship has a lantern on deck.

Here is how I would rule if it were my game: The character would be able to observe just fine within the light radius of the lantern, and would be limited as normal for the area in shadowy illumination. If the character's darkvision range was enough to reach the ship, they could use that to negate the shadowy illumination and to observe into the dark areas. If the character needed to make spot checks for any reason (reading lips, noticing a hiding creature, noticing something with an arbitrary spot DC), I would allow the spyglass to reduce the range penalties to spot to -1 per 20'.

I would not allow the spyglass to enhance the range of their darkvision, and likewise I would not allow a spyglass to enhance the range of normal vision for a character without darkvision in the dark carrying a sunrod. It would just allow for better inspection of details of items that were already illuminated.

As an aside, if I were going for a highly realistic game, I would hesitate to allow a spyglass to grant any sort of bonus or reduction of penalties for most spot checks unless the character was looking at a specific area or object. I've used low magnification rifle scopes and it was much easier for me to spot a target with the naked eye and then use the scope than it was to try to locate a target without first eyeballing the general location. This was because while the scope allowed me to descern far more detail than I could with the naked eye, it greatly limited my field of vision. You can try this yourself, go out into a field with a small ball (softball or mini soccer ball size). Throw it over your shoulder so it lands behind you. Turn around an you will spot the ball pretty quickly because you can take in a large amount of the scene at one time. Then try doing the same thing, but this time look through a paper towel tube. On average it will take much longer to find the ball because you can survey a much smaller area at a time. This effect gets worse when you start adding magnification, as the field of vision tends to narrow as the magnification increases.

 

[Neverwill]

But what the description we have is specifically saying to do is to reduce the penalties to spot DC. You can do that for darkvision, but it simply won't make a difference if the object is outside the darkvision's range.

Really bad wording there, IMHO, which is unfortunate, I'd say it's up to the DM to decide. As a DM, I'd say no.

Would you say the same thing for a human with a spyglass and a torch in complete darkness?

I think the question becomes how much real world vision and optics do you let into the game. My view is to keep it simple and ignore any possibility of range increases for both normal vision and darkvision. I need to think about what scenarios this would affect.

 

[Slaved]

I think I have decided on how telescopes will work in my own game.

Specifically, they will allow a character to ignore spot penalties within a certain range. If they have a telescope or spyglass that is rated between 500' and 1000' then they can treat the distance penalties as starting anywhere within that range but for anything less than 500' it will make viewing impossible with that item.

This makes it possible to have different types of telescopes and spyglasses based on the use that they are intended for and it gives a pretty easy way to tell exactly how they are working mechanically.

 

[werk]

I think I have decided on how telescopes will work in my own game.

I think I did too, but I'm going to try to stick close to the description and salt liberally with other rules.

House Rules Spoiler

Spoiler

I'm going to treat it like a reach weapon If you have darkvision 60', using a spyglass changes that to a zone to 60'-120' from the viewer, but while using it you can't see in the adjacent 60'. (Which is not to say that darkvision doesn't work in that range, just that they can't see inside it while using the spyglass.)

This would, of course, start the distance penalties to spot at 60' from the viewer.

 

[GreatLemur]

I think I'd make more distinction between "impossible to see" and "impossible to discern" than Mistwell does. The fact that most creatures' Darkvision ends at 60 feet, and also the fact that is works in complete darkness strongly suggest to me that the ability has nothing whatsoever to do with light.

However, since the rules don't mention anything about transparent materials being opaque to Darkvision (although, really, that'd be an extremely cool houserule), it also seems reasonable to assume that whatever force Darkvision detects, it passes through glass just as readily as light does. It also seems fair to say that it could be bent in the same way light is as it passes through such substances, so a telescope could very possibly magnify objects detectable by Darkvision just as it does objects detectable by normal sight.

This, however, would not extend the range of Darkvision any more than it allows people with normal sight to see through walls. The range limit of Darkvision, according to the rules, seems to be a hard, absolute limit. If it was an effect similar to nearsightedness, I'd think it would merely impose Spot and attack penalties towards the limits of its range.

 

[SlagMortar]

My telescope let's me see the rings of Saturn. The rings of Saturn are not within my normal visual range, despite there being no obstruction between me and the planet. Telescopes can extend your normal visual range.

But you can see Saturn, because it is big enough. It is not the distance that makes seeing Saturn's rings impossible with the naked eye.

A dwarf with darkvision can not see a Tarrasque that is 61 feet away. Why should the dwarf be able to see a human "magnified to twice its size" that is 61 feet away?

 

[Moon-Lancer]

so people that think dark vision is 0%Black only and 100%Back only, Do you see it in the form of stippling, and thus giving the illusion of gray, or is it like an Ipod commercial? really if its ONLY black and ONLY white, their would be no way to accurately see the world. You might as well be blind.

Frank, could you photoshop something up thats black and white only, because i am having a really hard time seeing it....

I think a magnifying glass would not enhance darkvision. Darkvision is a set distance. I think that objects within 60 feet would appear larger.

Visualy I think Dark Vision is grayscale of sorts, much like z channels.

this last one is wrong though and should go from light to dark starting from the foreground to background.

 

[Branduil]

Wait, who said it was black and white only? That's not what we're arguing about right now.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Wait, who said it was black and white only? That's not what we're arguing about right now.

oops, sorry, something on the first page... eh

 

[Jhulae]

so people that think dark vision is 0%Black only and 100%Back only, Do you see it in the form of stippling, and thus giving the illusion of gray, or is it like an Ipod commercial? really if its ONLY black and ONLY white, their would be no way to accurately see the world. You might as well be blind.

Frank, could you photoshop something up thats black and white only, because i am having a really hard time seeing it....

I think a magnifying glass would not enhance darkvision. Darkvision is a set distance. I think that objects within 60 feet would appear larger.

Visualy I think Dark Vision is grayscale of sorts, much like z channels.

this last one is wrong though and should go from light to dark starting from the foreground to background.

While those pictures are really cool, they have nothing to do with how Darkvision was described by one of the designers, as "Black and White TV Vision". When I watch a B&W TV show, it doesn't look anything like those pictures. It looks just how I'd see things normally, except without color. In other words, "just like normal vision, except in black and white".