Darkvision through a telescope

[Moon-Lancer]

While those pictures are really cool, they have nothing to do with how Darkvision was described by one of the designers, as "Black and White TV Vision". When I watch a B&W TV show, it doesn't look anything like those pictures. It looks just how I'd see things normally, except without color. In other words, "just like normal vision, except in black and white".

well its just a rationalization of what a world would look like without light. I realize that its supposed to be like black and white tv, but I also know, everything we see on tv (even black and white tv) is lit with light. So how can something look like it does on tv without any light? Everything on tv uses 3 point lighting of some sorts.

I also know this is just a game, but its just fun to think about how it would visually work. Its the curiosity of my art side that likes playing with this kind of thing. As for black and white tv, it doesen't work, but something very close could be possible.

What set of rules do you think something is chosen to be lighter and something else is chosen to be darker. I chose lighter in the foreground and darker and the background so the background can fade out at 60 feet. Almost as if artificial light is emanating from the eye. I guess their could be variance in value of things that reflect light diffrently, so one could read pages of a spell book in the dark.

 

[Branduil]

I think it would look similar to the images Moon-Lancer posted, although color and texture would have to be visible as well, so you could read spells, as was said.

 

[Jhulae]

well its just a rationalization of what a world would look like without light. I realize that its supposed to be like black and white tv, but I also know, everything we see on tv (even black and white tv) is lit with light. So how can something look like it does on tv without any light? Everything on tv uses 3 point lighting of some sorts.

I also know this is just a game, but its just fun to think about how it would visually work. Its the curiosity of my art side that likes playing with this kind of thing. As for black and white tv, it doesen't work, but something very close could be possible.

What set of rules do you think something is chosen to be lighter and something else is chosen to be darker. I chose lighter in the foreground and darker and the background so the background can fade out at 60 feet. Almost as if artificial light is emanating from the eye. I guess their could be variance in value of things that reflect light diffrently, so one could read pages of a spell book in the dark.

Well, seeing as Darkvison as presented in the game has no real world correlation at all, and since we get "Black and White TV vision" as a descriptor, it doesn't matter whether there's light or not. Creatures with Darkvision see things as if they were watching the world as a Black and White TV show up to the limit of their darkvision. After that, if it's pitch black (such as underground) they see absolutely nothing.

 

[Jhulae]

It's not. The spot rules and DMG rules on encounters state that there is a maximum range for normal vision regardless of light source. As your ranks and bonus in spot goes up, your maximum range extends. However, you will always have a maximum range (because there will always be a point where your negative on your spot modifier is so high as to make spotting anything at that distance impossible - hence a maximum range).



And Normal Vision has an absolute cutoff by spot skill modifier.

And if it is bright sunlight out, and there are no obstructions of any sort (including any type of terrain obstruction), a human with a spot modifier of 10 will still never be able to see something 300 feet away (unless they use a spy glass). Their maximum spot check is a 30 (with a roll of a natural 20), and they have a -30 on their check for the distance.

For you guys who think there is no maximum distance for normal vision, and that it is only determined by light source, what exactly is it you think a spy glass does for a character? What effect is the x2 magnification, in terms of game rules, for your game?

Except that your comparison is flawed again.

A dwarf in complete darkness with a +10, +100, or even +1000 to spot will *never* be able to see a Drow standing 61' away, regardless of whether the Drow is hiding or standing and jumping up and down. Darkvision range is absolute.

A Dwarf in complete darkness with a +10, +100, or even +1000 to spot will *never* be able to see the unlit ruins of a metropolis 61' away from where she's standing. Darkvision range is absolute.

A human with a bullseye lantern will be able to see something 61' away, even with a +0 to spot.

A human (or any race) will be able to see the ruins of a metropolis *miles* away, regardless of their ranks in spot.

The comparison between humans (or any kind of normal sight) versus darkvision is specious.

Note too what the SRD has to say about the Spot skill:

The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).

Nowhere does spot have any direct correlation between noticing creatures that aren't trying to be stealthy. Also, they *may* be called for, but not necessarily, especially in open terrain.

Page 22 of the DMG further states, under "Starting an Encounter" section:

"When you decide that it is possible for either side to become aware of the other, use Spot checks, Listen checks, sight ranges, and so on to determine which of the three above cases (One side becomes aware of the other side and thus can act first; Both sides become aware of each other at the same time; or Some but not all creatures on one or both sides become aware of the other side) comes into play."

See how that works? And see how it's not about hide checks or obstructions? Just like the Spot rule says, you can use a spot check to determine when an encounter begins, and it's not necessarily involving any sort of obstructions or hiding or terrain issues at all.

I'd also like to point out how you conveniently miss the "Listen checks, sight ranges, and so on" part of your DMG quote. Sight ranges are specifically called out in terrain types. For instance, the 'maximum' sighting distance given by the DMG (or SRD) in a plains encounter is 1440'.

Now, I just feel I have to quote this part again.

And if it is bright sunlight out, and there are no obstructions of any sort (including any type of terrain obstruction), a human with a spot modifier of 10 will still never be able to see something 300 feet away (unless they use a spy glass). Their maximum spot check is a 30 (with a roll of a natural 20), and they have a -30 on their check for the distance.

Even common sense says that your interpretation of maximum distance visible being based completely on Spot Skill is spurious. I must personally have a tremendous spot skill because I can see airplanes flying in the sky, and I know they're much further away than 300'... And trying to say that this particular real world logic wouldn't apply to the game is sophistic as well, because I personally would hate to play in a campaign where my character has a +10 spot check and is standing 301' away from the gates of Waterdeep and I can't even see the city...

Now, if something is *hiding* (or attempting to hide), I completely agree with you. A character with a spot check of +10 isn't going to be spotting hiding things at any great distance. Otherwise, see above.

 

[frankthedm]

Frank, could you photoshop something up thats black and white only, because i am having a really hard time seeing it....

3.0 DMG had a fine example of a mindflayer in normal and darkvision. All contrast was accomplished with the changing from black to white.

 

[Jhaelen]

really if its ONLY black and ONLY white, their would be no way to accurately see the world. You might as well be blind.

While I don't agree that darkvision is truly black/white only (i.e. I think it includes greyscale) you are wrong on this one.

I recommend you check out the Renaissance movie. It's true black&white but you can still see everything accurately, especially if things are in motion.

 

[Khuxan]

While I don't agree that darkvision is truly black/white only (i.e. I think it includes greyscale) you are wrong on this one.

I recommend you check out the Renaissance movie. It's true black&white but you can still see everything accurately, especially if things are in motion.

They went through a lot of steps to make Renaissance work. When you take a standard image and reduce it to black and white (not greyscale), it loses enough of its quality that it would be all but useless.

For example, compare the attached image to the image it was sourced from. At night, someone with darkvision would walk straight into the buildings just as someone with normal vision would.

 

[Mistwell]

Except that your comparison is flawed again.

A dwarf in complete darkness with a +10, +100, or even +1000 to spot will *never* be able to see a Drow standing 61' away, regardless of whether the Drow is hiding or standing and jumping up and down. Darkvision range is absolute.

A Dwarf in complete darkness with a +10, +100, or even +1000 to spot will *never* be able to see the unlit ruins of a metropolis 61' away from where she's standing. Darkvision range is absolute.

A human with a bullseye lantern will be able to see something 61' away, even with a +0 to spot.

A human (or any race) will be able to see the ruins of a metropolis *miles* away, regardless of their ranks in spot.

The comparison between humans (or any kind of normal sight) versus darkvision is specious.

I disagree. According to the rules, unless you are dealing with a hidden thing, any situation which would be deemed to be an encounter uses the spot, listen, and sight range rules to be able to see it, and the spot rules say that a human has a maximum range they can see (regardless of the size of the object, though you are free to offer a circumstance bonus for object size).

Given that a human has a maximum range they can see (as determined by their spot bonus), and if in your game a spy glass could extend that range (which I think is a reasonable thing to do with a x2 magnification effect), then in that same game I would extend the maximum range of darkvision using a spy glass. The human hard-line limit (as rated by spot checks) should not get an exception using a spyglass that the darkvision hard-limit (as rated by the race of the creature in question) doesn't get, because darkvision otherwise functions just like normal vision.

That's the argument. You can disagree with it, but it's not a specious comparison. It's one of two competing rationale interpretations of the rules.

Note too what the SRD has to say about the Spot skill:


Nowhere does spot have any direct correlation between noticing creatures that aren't trying to be stealthy. Also, they *may* be called for, but not necessarily, especially in open terrain.

In my opinion, there is no purpose to the clause about starting an encounter with spot checks, and things not being hidden but still sometimes calling for a spot check, if it is only about being stealthy. And if you combine it with the DMG rules that I quoted above for when an encounter starts, it becomes even more clear to me that the spot skill is to be used to start encounters even when nobody is trying to be stealthy or hide. They spell out the three scenarios, and they can involve competing spot checks and not a hide check vs. a spot check.

I'd also like to point out how you conveniently miss the "Listen checks, sight ranges, and so on" part of your DMG quote. Sight ranges are specifically called out in terrain types. For instance, the 'maximum' sighting distance given by the DMG (or SRD) in a plains encounter is 1440'.

Your maximum range for sight is in the spot checks as well. And I didn't leave anything out, I quoted it, and I repeated back all three factors. It's just that listen didn't apply in the examples we were using, and sight ranges in the terrain is just an additional limitation, and not the only place where a maximum range is discussed (such as the spot rules).

Now, I just feel I have to quote this part again.



Even common sense says that your interpretation of maximum distance visible being based completely on Spot Skill is spurious.

If it is for WHEN AN ENCOUNTER STARTS it makes some sense (and is the rules). Most encounters are not involving seeing a big city in the distance, an airplane in the air, or the rings of Saturn. Seeing a city in the distance is a role playing color aspect of the game usually, and doesn't require encounter rules.

I must personally have a tremendous spot skill because I can see airplanes flying in the sky, and I know they're much further away than 300'... And trying to say that this particular real world logic wouldn't apply to the game is sophistic as well, because I personally would hate to play in a campaign where my character has a +10 spot check and is standing 301' away from the gates of Waterdeep and I can't even see the city...

If seeing the city is part of an encounter, the rules call for a spot check. Now I agree with you it's not logical, but then having the encounter start when you see the city isn't logical either. In addition, you guys are trying to argue the logic of a spy glass and darkvision and seeing through glass as well. Pick a friggen position already - either we use real world logic, in which case you cannot use a spyglass with darkvision at all because darkvision should have nothing to do with light, or we just use the rules and not logic, in which case you need a spot check to start an encounter with something distant. If you want to combine logic and the rules, I am fine with that as well, but then quit being a strict constructionist on the rules when it comes to trying to figure out what x2 magnification does to a type of vision that normal extends 60'.

Now, if something is *hiding* (or attempting to hide), I completely agree with you. A character with a spot check of +10 isn't going to be spotting hiding things at any great distance. Otherwise, see above.

"Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it....Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups...When you decide that it is possible for either side to become aware of the other, use Spot checks, Listen checks, sight ranges, and so on to determine which of the three above cases"

Spot is used to begin an encounter, even if one side is not hiding or obstructed. I think it's pretty clear. You disagree, and that's fair. But I hope we can back down some of the "specious" claims. You can disagree without that sort of stuff.

Let me again also say that we have reached an impasse. We have two competing rationale interpretations of the rules. It's up to individual DMs to determine which interpretation they will go with. Some people think it makes sense in the rules as written to allow a spyglass to extend the maximum range of Darkvision by x2, and others do not. Discussing these same points further will only result in more repetition, and if trends hold it will also result in an increasingly aggressive stance by folks trying to "win" an argument that cannot be won.

 

[Jhulae]

They went through a lot of steps to make Renaissance work. When you take a standard image and reduce it to black and white (not greyscale), it loses enough of its quality that it would be all but useless.

For example, compare the attached image to the image it was sourced from. At night, someone with darkvision would walk straight into the buildings just as someone with normal vision would.

If that's how Darkvision worked, but it's not. It's Black and White TV vision (ie it includes greyscale).

And day or night have nothing to do with darkvision, as it's the ability to see with no light at all.

 

[Branduil]

I disagree. According to the rules, unless you are dealing with a hidden thing, any situation which would be deemed to be an encounter uses the spot, listen, and sight range rules to be able to see it, and the spot rules say that a human has a maximum range they can see (regardless of the size of the object, though you are free to offer a circumstance bonus for object size).

Given that a human has a maximum range they can see (as determined by their spot bonus), and if in your game a spy glass could extend that range (which I think is a reasonable thing to do with a x2 magnification effect), then in that same game I would extend the maximum range of darkvision using a spy glass. The human hard-line limit (as rated by spot checks) should not get an exception using a spyglass that the darkvision hard-limit (as rated by the race of the creature in question) doesn't get, because darkvision otherwise functions just like normal vision.

That's the argument. You can disagree with it, but it's not a specious comparison. It's one of two competing rationale interpretations of the rules.



In my opinion, there is no purpose to the clause about starting an encounter with spot checks, and things not being hidden but still sometimes calling for a spot check, if it is only about being stealthy. And if you combine it with the DMG rules that I quoted above for when an encounter starts, it becomes even more clear to me that the spot skill is to be used to start encounters even when nobody is trying to be stealthy or hide. They spell out the three scenarios, and they can involve competing spot checks and not a hide check vs. a spot check.



Your maximum range for sight is in the spot checks as well. And I didn't leave anything out, I quoted it, and I repeated back all three factors. It's just that listen didn't apply in the examples we were using, and sight ranges in the terrain is just an additional limitation, and not the only place where a maximum range is discussed (such as the spot rules).



If it is for WHEN AN ENCOUNTER STARTS it makes some sense (and is the rules). Most encounters are not involving seeing a big city in the distance, an airplane in the air, or the rings of Saturn. Seeing a city in the distance is a role playing color aspect of the game usually, and doesn't require encounter rules.



If seeing the city is part of an encounter, the rules call for a spot check. Now I agree with you it's not logical, but then having the encounter start when you see the city isn't logical either. In addition, you guys are trying to argue the logic of a spy glass and darkvision and seeing through glass as well. Pick a friggen position already - either we use real world logic, in which case you cannot use a spyglass with darkvision at all because darkvision should have nothing to do with light, or we just use the rules and not logic, in which case you need a spot check to start an encounter with something distant. If you want to combine logic and the rules, I am fine with that as well, but then quit being a strict constructionist on the rules when it comes to trying to figure out what x2 magnification does to a type of vision that normal extends 60'.



"Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it....Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups...When you decide that it is possible for either side to become aware of the other, use Spot checks, Listen checks, sight ranges, and so on to determine which of the three above cases"

Spot is used to begin an encounter, even if one side is not hiding or obstructed. I think it's pretty clear. You disagree, and that's fair. But I hope we can back down some of the "specious" claims. You can disagree without that sort of stuff.

Let me again also say that we have reached an impasse. We have two competing rationale interpretations of the rules. It's up to individual DMs to determine which interpretation they will go with. Some people think it makes sense in the rules as written to allow a spyglass to extend the maximum range of Darkvision by x2, and others do not. Discussing these same points further will only result in more repetition, and if trends hold it will also result in an increasingly aggressive stance by folks trying to "win" an argument that cannot be won.

Well, you can do whatever you want in your own games, of course. But I think an interpretation of the rules which results in my character not being able to see the sun or the moon is utterly ludicrous.