Darth Vader: Alignment

[VictorC]

I would have to say Vader was Nutral Evil. He was willing to serve the emperor until the thought of ruling the universe with his son tempted him. Had luke agreed the emperor would have been overthrown by his apprentice. However if I had to pick an alignment for Anikin it would have to be something like sissy little girl.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I agree with Umbran entirely. Obedience does not automatically equal lawful. And yes, it's entirely possible for the head of a relatively lawful government not to be lawful himself.

And yes, the dark side is all about giving in to emotion, anger in particular.

And I'll add one other example:

"I am altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further."

Not a lawful attitude, however you slice it.

Of course, lack of a lawful attitude does not indicate a chaotic one. I'm of the opinion that a creed of pure self-interest is neutral evil, and that you have to actually want to dismantle organization and tradition in order to qualify as chaotic. Vader made great use of the lawful nature of the Empire to suit his purposes, but he wasn't particularly concerned with keeping it lawful, beyond the needs of expediency. It's much easier to rule a lawful empire than a chaotic one, after all. But he breaks his deals, plots to betray his emperor, and generally flaunts the rules. He doesn't show any strong leanings in either direction. He's just evil.

 

[KingCrab]

This argument goes to show once again that alignment doesn't make sense and should be dropped. You can look at the same people in different ways and come to very different conclusions.

However, if I had to pick, I'd say LE all the way!

 

[Creeping Death]

Which one is which?

There are always two Sith, divided as master and apprentice. The only ones we have seen lead structured, disciplined lives.

On the other hand we have "trust your instincts", "Trust your feelings", truth through leaps of insight... Jedi have the whole meditative monkish lawfulness going on, but at the same time seem a little too "free your mind"-ish for me to rule out their chaotic side. (neutrality through duality rather than balance or apathy?)

Until the apprentice becomes strong enough to kill his master and then take his place. That is how the tanari rule in the abyss; might makes right. Either Vader becomes strong enough to kill the emporer or the emporer kills vader before it happens. It's very chaotic.

While the jedi "trust in their feelings" there is a code that must be followed. There is a method, a way of deciding, who becomes a knight, and who becomes a Jedi Master. Lawful.

 

[Wik]

Neutral evil. He's not really all that chaotic, but he is more than willing to break rules and over rule the power structure to get what he wants (after all, how many times has he killed his own underlings on a whim?)

 

[robberbaron]

Darth Vader = Lawful Evil. He does the Emperor's bidding (Emp's NE) without question, right up to the end. The Evil bit is killing anyone who gets in the way of him completing his mission.
Mind you, he was definitely at least Neutral Evil (maybe CN) when he fell under Palpatine's 'spell' and started stepping off the Lawful Jedi path.

Voldemort = Chaotic Evil. He kills indiscrimately and has no friends. He trusts no-one and no-one trusts him.

 

[Treebore]

Being Lawful does not mean you will never act Chaotic. Being good does not mean you can never do evil acts.

In other words, no one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes.

I say Darth Vader is Neutral Evil. He is all about what he wants, not what Padme wants, not what his son wants, not even about what his mother wanted. He killed many Jedi, and Jedi children because what what he wanted was what was most important to him.

He served those who gave him what he wanted, even if it was just to stay alive. Which is why he served the emperor, but desired to overthrow him.

He wasn't very Chaotic, because he tolerated the yoke of the Emperor for a very long time.

His redemption was significant because he finally put the life of his son before his own. The first seriously unselfish act he ever did. Every other unselfish act was to pay a price to get something he wanted more, such as to be trained in the ways of the force.

He did things that were chaotic, he did things that were good, he did things that were lawful, he did things that were horribly evil, but they were all done to get him what he wanted. Neutral Evil, overall.

 

[Treebore]

Oh yeah, bringing order to the Galaxy was Palpatine's Schtick. Darth Vader just mouthed it to be a good lackey.

All Vader cared about was that he wanted to be the boss. Who knows what he would have done if he had gotten there.

Probably allow the Empire to fragment, since he was no where near the manipulator Palpatine was.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Oh yeah, bringing order to the Galaxy was Palpatine's Schtick. Darth Vader just mouthed it to be a good lackey.

In the same speech where he proposed overthrowing the Emperor so they could rule the galaxy as father and son? Uh-huh. Sure.

 

[Mouseferatu]

In the same speech where he proposed overthrowing the Emperor so they could rule the galaxy as father and son? Uh-huh. Sure.

Can we be sure, though, that he meant it? Vader's got a habit of making promises, or using deceit, to get what he wants.

Again, I point you to his "deal" with Lando. But for other examples, consider that it was (at least by implication) Vader's idea to let the Falcon escape the Death Star, with the homing beacon hidden within.

Sure, it's possible that he really felt he could "bring order to the Galaxy." But it would be a mistake to assume he meant what he said at face value.

And actually, Treebore's convinced me with his other arguments. If I could change my vote, I'd shift it from CE to NE.

(Well, he's convinced me so far as is possible when trying to apply the D&D alignment system where it clearly doesn't apply. That is, anywhere but D&D. )