Darth Vader: Alignment

[ruleslawyer]

THIS is why I think Darth Vader is LE.

 

[castro3nw]

So...
1) Anakin=CG... Vader=LE...

2) Anakin + helmet = Vader...

3) Vader doesn't like his helmet removed...

4) Vader with helmet = LE... Vader sans helmet = CG...

I can only assume the Darth Vader helmet is, in all reality, actually a helm of opposite alignment.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

So...
1) Anakin=CG... Vader=LE...

2) Anakin + helmet = Vader...

3) Vader doesn't like his helmet removed...

4) Vader with helmet = LE... Vader sans helmet = CG...

I can only assume the Darth Vader helmet is, in all reality, actually a helm of opposite alignment.

Well, the suit doesn't make him Vader. The horrible burning and fire does, and that's after he takes the name.

A better way to look at this is just like Obi-Wan described in Return of the Jedi. Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker, becoming the former. They are, essentially, two seperate people. While Anakin is CG(heavy on the chaotic), Vader is LE. There isn't really a transition from CG to LE and then back...its just what the two separate people ARE.

 

[Cameron]

Mmmmmmm, strawberry banana ice cream vader......



That seems entirely backwards to me. A LAWFUL ruler expects their personal commands to be carried out to the letter (the letter of the law). A CHAOTIC ruler doesn't expect everyone to obey his personal commands unless it suits them individually (and if it doesn't suit them individually, a CE ruler would kill them). A LAWFUL EVIL ruler would make arbitrary laws simply for the purposes of punishment, because that would (a) reinforce the power of authority and (b) amuse him when people are tormented.

Mister Chaotic Evil Despot wouldn't be that interested in issuing orders, because he would expect people to ignore them (they have no power, they're ineffective, he doesn't trust the system). He wouldn't operate at the head of a system, he'd operate at the core of a gang, a likeminded cadre of thugs who all enjoy that brutality and who kill those who don't. In this light, the Tanar'ri and the orcish hordes of D&D exemplify CE.

No. CE issues orders and expects them to be obeyed *out of fear of what he will do if they didn't*. That is why an Orc King will tell some of his followers to go out and raid x caravan. The CE rules knows that if someone else had the ability, they'd depose him. Palpy expected people to depose him if gotten half the chance. He kept Vader under the influence of the Dark Side to prevent that. Vader's quote about how he is *forced* to obey is very telling in that regard.

A CE follower would depose the ruler if he got half the chance. Vader did this explicitly in the original when he tried to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Just because someone has served under someone else does not mean he is Lawful. He could be Chaotic but forced by circumstance to serve. After all, would you consider any of the major demonlords' (Orcus, Jubillex and the lot) servants to be lawful because they have served them for centuries, if not millenia? Of course not. Being forced to serve is different from being *willing* to serve. That is one of the differences between Lawful and Chaotic, and Vader was never willing. Not even in the first trilogy.

 

[joeandsteve]

If Vader isn't LE, I don't know who the hell is... according to the CE crowd, it seems that a LE person cannot exist in a society that is good or neutral, because then he would be against the establishment, and therefore chaotic. I don't buy it.

 

[Harmon]

I was almost certain that he was LE, from the first time I understood the alignment "rules" and revisited the movies, I thought- "now that is LE."

I think that Ani was LG (episode 1) and shifted towards CG (episode 2-3) then across TN to LE at some point by the end of 3.

 

[Odhanan]

For me, by the Jedi Purge, Darth Vader is a textbook example of what "Lawful Evil" means. Nevermind how he got there.

 

[Felix]

A CE follower would depose the ruler if he got half the chance. Vader did this explicitly in the original when he tried to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Explicitly? So his only motivation was to depose Palpatine and not, oh, I don't know... to save the life of his son?

By turning Luke to the Dark side Vader can both save the life of his son and unite the factions of Empire and Rebellion to restore Order; this is something the Emperor cannot do: Palpatine must wage a "destructive conflict" to unite the factions. Vader wants to keep things as whole as possible for when he brings them under his, and his son's, rule.

So how exactly was your interpretation anything like explicit?

 

[Baby Samurai]

I would say he started as Chaotic Good, but veered into Lawful Evil in the end.

Obi reeks of Neutral Good to me.

 

[Pagan priest]

Vader is very much LE, even during the Bespin events. That was an illegal operation, leaving a garrison behind put the Empire in charge and restored law and order. Betrayal of the Emperor? That is purely evil and does not effect the law/chaos axis at all. Execution of the incompetant oficers is a way to open a path for more competant officers to move up and take their place, thus allowing the military to be a better tool for imposing the Imperial Will. Even the destruction of Alderon was Lawful Evil. It punished the many for the actions of a few, collective guilt is VERY lawful.

In the end, there is no real justification for calling him NE, let alone CE.