DCs for Knowledge checks about monsters too dang high

[buzz]

Joe Commoner doesn't meet that many dragons in his lifetime, do they?

This could defnitely be a flavor issue, as Kahuna Burger suggests.

However, unlike our mythology, there is a definitive answer to "What's a red dragon like?" in the D&D universe. What will filter down from the experts to the common rabble will at least be bits iof fact, not conflicting fictions. I haven't met any rattlesnakes in my life, but I know enough about them to gauge the potential danger.

Ergo, Joe Commoner will have some valid knowledge. And and adventurer? They're going to know even more about their common enemies.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Ah, Arcana Unearthed/Evolved has this as well. Yet another reason to love it.

How does Monte et. al. handle the knowledge check DC for beasties?

I've been tempted to get the AU/E books before, this just reinforces it. I just don't have the spare cash to spend on the big black tome. Here's hoping for amazon gift cards for christmas!

 

[Arnwyn]

CR seems problematic to me as well. What if you're talking about a creature with a high CR that also happens to be widely known about? E.g., Smaug probably has a CR of 25+, but I'd bet the good folk of Lake Town would be well aware of his basic abilities.

And therein lies the problem. What is "widely known about"? Definition? Who decides this? This is something that the core rules can't possibly cover - every world will be different in the assumptions on how much anyone knows about monsters.

I do agree that the current 'knowledge about monsters' RAW is... deficient. No question that this is due purely to space concerns as well as game simplification. With the removal of freqency/rarity in 3.x, the problem is exacerbated.

In my mind, there's no way to get around it except for some rather heavy houseruling.

Aside:
(IMO, CR is a better modifier for the DC than HD - lower CR creatures are more likely to be encountered and survived by more of the populace, and are also more likely to be legitimately studied - thus resulting in facts about creatures, and not legends.)

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

(IMO, CR is a better modifier for the DC than HD - lower CR creatures are more likely to be encountered and survived by more of the populace, and are also more likely to be legitimately studied - thus resulting in facts about creatures, and not legends.)

This still runs into the "dragon problem" however.

Wyrmling 3; very young 4; young 5; juvenile 7; young adult 9; adult 11; mature adult 14; old 16; very old 18; ancient 19; wyrm 20; great wyrm 22

So, it's easy to know facts about wyrmling black dragons, but really hard to know things about great wyrm black dragons.

More generally, this applies to any creature with an advancement; why should it be harder to know things about stronger, tougher wolves than basic wolves? After all, they're still wolves.

 

[Arnwyn]

This still runs into the "dragon problem" however.

Oh, no question it certainly does - my "preference" that I noted above is still a suboptimal rule without some form of additional mitigating rules (eg. ignoring any advancement when determining the DC).

My point in the previous post was more along the lines of: "either 1) take it and like it, or 2) expansive houserule".

 

[Klaus]

This still runs into the "dragon problem" however.



So, it's easy to know facts about wyrmling black dragons, but really hard to know things about great wyrm black dragons.

More generally, this applies to any creature with an advancement; why should it be harder to know things about stronger, tougher wolves than basic wolves? After all, they're still wolves.

'Cause it's harder to walk up to the rare 12 HD wolf and learn stuff it can do that a 2HD wolf can't, and live to tell the tale.

If the 12HD wolf can do only the stuff a 2HD wolf can, you should roll against the 2HD, which is the most widespread, common variety.

Buzz -> OK, how's this: until Darwin came along, people (even scholars!) were absolutely certain that dirty rags left in the dark for a while, undisturved, would spawn rats. Not attract them, the rats would actually spring to life, fully formed, from the cloth. And maybe Joe Average can tell a brown bear from a polar bear. But can he tell a black bear (which isn't always black) from a brown bear, or a brown bear from a grizzly, or a South American spectacled bear? Can he name the differences from a freshwater pink porpoise from a saltwater bottlenose dolphin?

Sure adventurers can know this. After all, they get to spend points on Knowledge. And, like I said, a 4th-level wizard can know lots of things about even a CR13 dragon, with minor diffculty.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If the 12HD wolf can do only the stuff a 2HD wolf can, you should roll against the 2HD, which is the most widespread, common variety.

But my point is that "Base it off CR" or "Base it off HD" don't address this issue.

 

[IanB]

But my point is that "Base it off CR" or "Base it off HD" don't address this issue.

The issue only needs to be addressed if you won't let people roll against things that aren't present.

Picture the scholar in his library, surrounded by thousands of expensive books. An adventurer comes in to ask him, "Great Teacher, what sort of weapon do I need to hurt a dretch?"

The scholar says, "I'm sorry, I can't actually answer that question unless there's a dretch in the room with me."

 

[buzz]

But can he tell a black bear (which isn't always black) from a brown bear, or a brown bear from a grizzly, or a South American spectacled bear? Can he name the differences from a freshwater pink porpoise from a saltwater bottlenose dolphin?

Sure adventurers can know this. After all, they get to spend points on Knowledge. And, like I said, a 4th-level wizard can know lots of things about even a CR13 dragon, with minor diffculty.

My point is simply that Joe is going to know a bear when he sees one, even if he can't readily tell Black from Brown. For having no ranks in K(nature), that's fine. Adveturers should have a better baseline, IMO, and adventurers with ranks in the right skill even more so. The RAW DCs are just too dang high, and suffer from the "But what do I know about baby dragons?" problem.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The issue only needs to be addressed if you won't let people roll against things that aren't present.

I don't see how that has anything to do with it.

It's DC X to learn a fact about a low-hd, low-CR creature.

It's DC X+Y to learn the same fact about an advanced low-hd, low-CR creature.

The creature's presence in the room is immaterial.