DDI vs WoW

I need to see DDI first.

And, personally, I think they need to extend the model so that 1 subscription can become 1 host, and a host can support indefinate clients.

That way, I can, as DM, pay for my subscription, and use the VTT to distribute maps and tactical information to my whole group, as well as using the voice, etc, etc.

They don't get the content, or anything.

I believe this is already in place, but for only 2 guests. That's wrong.
They will not lose any substantatial potential profit, as far as I can see, where they to take my idea, and run with it.
 

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xechnao said:
Such as...and why...?
Well, I did give two examples, which you obviously identified. I'll go into more details on those below.

I will add that I don't find taking the best elements of game design from MMOGs to be "aping" those games. One of Bradford's examples is the identification of specific roles for character classes. I'm not sure that it does any good to fail to communicate the roles of character classes to the players of the game. It may be that one can have classes that don't fit nicely into a role, but this will lead to certain situations in the game as it is played that the designers don't feel is optimal. In a combat game, and D&D has always been a combat game, a clear understanding of what a character does in combat can only help new and even existing players. (Similar critiques apply to other elements of game design that have been adopted in 4E that also show up in many MMOGs.)
I haven't got this. I think he is arguing that the tabletop business model should not try to compete with the MMO model and instead try to evolve or revolve in a way that originates and capitalizes to its basic unique premises and strengths in the new era.
Sure, but Bradford appears to be entirely ignorant of the existing, non MMOG, RPG business model. An important part of that model is producing rules product that players (or merely readers) of the game will continue to purchase. This is the role of splatbooks.

Bradford claims that 4E is "crippleware" without DDI, but he provides only one argument for this position and this argument is contrary to the existing model and developer claims.

In the existing model, splatbooks, setting books, and additional "core" books (such as more advanced player and DMs guides) are produced in a way to appeal to gamers. Not every player buys these books, but the continued success of any games companies relies on the purchase of these books. Gaming magazines are a combination of these products, produced in small sizes and at relatively small cost to reach a market that is not willing to spend more on such content and to provide additional opportunities to spend for those who want as much of such content as they can get.

Now DDI can deliver the same content as a gaming magazine, but at a better cost of production (since there are no printing costs). The additional potential abilities of an internet distribution service allow WOTC to bundle other products with this content, thus expanding their market by appealing to a wider variety of gamers. As far as I can tell, this is exactly the use to which WOTC statements claim that the project is for.

Now Bradford's argument for the "crippleware" conclusion seems to be that Hasbro will demand that D&D produce WoW performance. I find this hard to believe, given that Hasbro has the ability to do the cursory market research to find the difference between the two markets. While corporations are quite happy ruining things in the pursuit of profit, it is not enough to merely assume that they will automatically act without any comprehension of their products or market.
But there has been distant tabletop online gaming for quite some time now such as for example PBP/PBEM.
[sarcasm]Right. And there is no difference between PBP/PBEM and the immediacy of the proposed DDI features or between PBP/PBEM and teleconferencing.[/sarcasm]

My point is that better communications technology can bring the immediate social interaction of RPGaming to people at a great distance apart and something like the DDI features would be part of such telecommunications suites. One of the features of RPGs is the immediate construction of narrative in a context where there is no distance between author and audience. This feature is important (whether or not gamers consciously realize this) and it is lost in PBP/PBEM. Voice chat and video conferencing might recover that, but might not.
 

Apropos teleconferencing; I wonder if you could use Skype to run a "face-to-face" game without actually being face-to-face.
 

hong said:
Apropos teleconferencing; I wonder if you could use Skype to run a "face-to-face" game without actually being face-to-face.
You could, but I think that Ventrillo would be the application of choice for such a thing.
 

I've had a fair bit of success using Skype, but it can get chaotic if everyone's talking at once, even moreso than a real table.

Ventrilo, with push to talk, solves this. Vent is generally superior sound quality anyway.
 

There are any number of options out there for VTT gaming. Pretty much every IM program out there supports video now. The only problem really is the game map and die rollers.

Enter any number of VTT programs, both pay and not, to fill that void.

In all fairness, I think WOTC is making a serious mistake tying the VTT to a subscription model. The whole point of a VTT is to get more people playing. Why not make it easier?

I hate, no, loathe the idea that the DM should have to pay extra. If I choose to run a game over a particular VTT, then I'm pretty much guaranteeing 4 sales of the player version of the VTT. Why do I have to pay extra for the privilege of selling your product? Why not just make a single version client that supports both DM's and players and charge one price? That's the most fair way of doing it.

Placing the economic burden squarely on the DM is just bad marketing. I'd love to use Fantasy Grounds, but Hell will freeze over before I pay extra just so I can sell four or five more versions for them. OpenRPG may not be as pretty as FG, but, at least I'm not getting screwed over for using it.

What I'd love to see is a scaled down version of the DDI VTT which is pretty much just the basic map, die roller and connection abilities. Make it like OpenRPG, in that the DM has to host his own images somewhere. Sure, if I want all the extras, I get to pay for the nice version, but, if I don't want them, I don't have to pay.

To me, that's a pretty win/win idea.
 

VannATLC said:
I need to see DDI first.

And, personally, I think they need to extend the model so that 1 subscription can become 1 host, and a host can support indefinate clients.

That way, I can, as DM, pay for my subscription, and use the VTT to distribute maps and tactical information to my whole group, as well as using the voice, etc, etc.

They don't get the content, or anything.

I believe this is already in place, but for only 2 guests. That's wrong.
They will not lose any substantatial potential profit, as far as I can see, where they to take my idea, and run with it.
At DDXP, they said that DDI will have a "token" system. Everybody with an account gets 8 tokens per month, those tokens can be used for another user to get into the system for, I believe, a day. Again this is my understanding and could be wrong, but the idea is to allow a single DM to host a game twice a month for 4 players on DDI.

Allowing one host to support indefinite clients for an indefinite period of time is bad business for a subscription-based service, though. Subscription services make money by having paid subscribers. The idea is that if you want to use the D&DI content more than just the times of the month that you are having your biweekly game, you ought to be buying a subscription.
 

Hussar said:
To me, that's a pretty win/win idea.
No offense, but it sounds like you have a slightly shaky grasp of what "win/win" means (and a very shaky grasp of the business model of the D&DI VTT - given that you have said several things that are explicitly contrary to the D&DI model). Giving away the store has never been a good business model. The fact that they are implementing a system that allows people to invite other players to play for free a few times a month (while not receiving the full D&DI functionality, which encompasses more than just the virtual tabletop) indicates that they have already accepted that people will want to play with other players who do not necessarily own a D&DI subscription.

Offering a free product, however, that directly competes with your for-pay product is bad business, and always has been.
 

you can't play TRPGs whenever you want, as you want, how you want because you have to have at least one other person to play them at all- and you usually need more than that.

I find it amusing that this is why I quit WoW. I was with a guide that started from a group of maybe 10 real-world friends, a few of which I play D&D with and have for years. At high level play, I got ridiculously bored of not having anything I could do on my own. I didn't want random PuGs (how I loath them!) and I hated having to schedule 3 hours of time to run through an instance/raid...again. And again. And again! And there was little reason for me to be online other than to run those raids since I could do nothing on my own except grind for gold. Boring!

So I quit. I don't want a computer game that I have the schedule when I play it to do anything useful and fun. I have D&D night for that! And I don't find it entertaining to do the same damn thing week after week with the hopes of getting lucky and doing just a little better. At least each game of D&D is new and exciting.

With my group, our D&D night comes first. Even those friends who still play WoW will schedule D&D instead of a WoW raid given a choice between the two. We even managed to add a new player to our D&D group, someone who we met through our WoW guide.

I think the two genres feed off each other. Most of my friends wouldn't want to give up their WoW completely: it fills their down-time with something. But none of us stopped playing D&D because we started WoW. They don't fill the same niche. They don't satisfy the same craving. For some people, yes these are competing products, but I think (bases solely on my experiences and people I've talked) the competitious between tabletop games and online games is pretty low. I haven't heard of someone giving up one solely based on taking up the other (but I'm sure it has happened).
 

hong said:
Apropos teleconferencing; I wonder if you could use Skype to run a "face-to-face" game without actually being face-to-face.

Heck, we've run many campaigns just on AIM and it worked out great. I think technology is just going to make it easier and easier to find fellow gamers to play with. The main problem between the two is that with WOW you can always just jump in while with D&D there is usually an on-going structure that requires all parties to participate. So that will still be a problem even online, scheduling players.
 

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