D&D 5E Deadly D&D5E

[MechaPilot]

Ok so yeah I played classic D&D and had a great time. Yes I could just go play Classic D&D and be done,finished. I realize that BUT....lets take it for a given that I don't want to do that. Lets say for instance that I love buying new stuff and my players scream 5E on waking every morning.

While I might get them to play some 5E house rules that poke and prod the edition towards deadly they would balk at playing Classic.

So for good or bad lets not waste time going down that road.



What set of house rules could you use to make 5E deadly as all get out while altering as little as possible.

. . .

If you guys were going to House Rule a DEADLY D&D5E set of rules what would they be?

If I were intentionally trying to make 5e as deadly as possible with as little tinkering as possible, this is what I'd do.

1) Death occurs at 0 HPs, no death saves.
2) Remove Hit Dice.
3) Long rest healing is 1 HP per day.
4) Healing potions are not for sale as ordinary equipment, and they cannot be made through nonmagical means.

If I wanted to put more work into it, I'd do the following as well.

5) Remove HP threshholds from SoD and SoS spells.
6) Replace the save ends of SoS spells with a defined duration.
7) Make the maximum HP loss from energy drain permanent, and removable only by very high level magic.

 

[MNblockhead]

I like what i'm seeing here!

What about the other half of things though? How do I streamline character creation so making a new character isn't a chore and much faster? Isn't there a section in the DMG on removing skills and taking it to a ability roll?

Also if you made it 3D6 in order and removed feats it would give characters reasons to love those +2 increases a lot more.

DnD Beyond will make character creation a breeze. The have a guided mode that steps you through the process but lets you make all the decisions, and automatical randomly generated character mode, and an in-between mode where you select a few attributes that are most important to you (maybe just class and race, for example) and it will generate the rest automatically.

It is still in beta and only offers SRD options, but will go live in mid-August with all official content (anything beyond SRD will have fees associated).

HeroLab is another great product, but it can be wonky to use for DnD 5e as they don't have a license, so you are dealing with community created content for a lot of it and not of the non-SRD flavor text is there. If you play systems other than 5e, however, HeroLab is probably the way to go.

That said, I can roll up a character on a paper character sheet with the Players Handbook quickly. I say I *can*, but I usually spend far to much time reading an rereading options. DnD Beyond makes fiddling around during character creation a lot easier.

 

[guachi]

I saw one particularly evil poster state the idea that you don't roll death saves until someone checks on you. That way no one at the table knows how close to death you actually are.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I like what i'm seeing here!

What about the other half of things though? How do I streamline character creation so making a new character isn't a chore and much faster? Isn't there a section in the DMG on removing skills and taking it to a ability roll?

I see two options, both of which I have used:

(1) Allow "wildcard" skills (and languages) in the interest of getting the game going. That is, the player defers choosing skills until they matter. If during play they run across giantish, or an opportunity to use Animal Handling, they can choose to convert the wildcard skill into that language or skill on the spot, as if that had been the skill all along. Maybe that will never happen--maybe the PC will die with wildcard skills and languages still intact, and then you'll be glad you never bothered with them.

I typically use this option for new players who are still learning the ropes, but you could use it to support quicker iteration of PCs as well.

(2) Practice. Choosing four or five skills really doesn't take that much time in the first place, and if the players really are iterating as quickly as that B/X thread (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?676099-B-X-Misadventures-in-randomly-generated-dungeons), they'll quickly get used to writing down "Athletics/Stealth/Perception/Survival/Deception", or whatever combination they like best.

 

[Ancalagon]

Having the "dying" rules be more dire and not full healing after long rest should make things more challenging.

Also use "waves" in combats - the PCs fight off a first group, and as they are winning and about to finish off the foes, reinforcements arrive.

 

[Tony Vargas]

What set of house rules could you use to make 5E deadly as all get out while altering as little as possible.

Roll 3d6 in order, for stats. Start at first level. Repeat until someone gets to 2nd.

What makes 5e quickly go from deadly to dudly is the instant death/dying rules. At 1st level, instant death, at - your hps in one blow, can totally happen. At 2nd, it'd be a hard-hitting creature on a crit. It gets less and less likely as your hps balloon, and death saves, also pretty generous, become the primary mechanic.

You could, instead, set death at negative-CON or negative-HD-type or negative-your-1st-level-hps or whatever negative sounds good. And track and heal from negatives instead from 0 & having death saves. Dropped PCs could 'bleed' 1 hp/round or make a death save to avoid bleeding, I suppose.

When those guys made that 4E alternate house ruled deadly encounters thing with the Iron Lich and ect..what did they do?

Increasing the levels of enemies could quickly make things deadly (though not in a fun way, if you figure missing a lot while getting hit on 2 is not fun).

Is it as simple as using 24 hour short rest and week long long rests? To be honest that seems boring but maybe i'm wrong.

No, that shifts pacing, it's nothing much to do with being deadly - having more encounters crammed into a day would have the same effect.

Just how far can we push and pull the system?

Until it's completely unrecognizable, if we want.

What about the other half of things though? How do I streamline character creation so making a new character isn't a chore and much faster? Isn't there a section in the DMG on removing skills and taking it to a ability roll?

Nothing to it, when you decide to call for a check, just call for the stat, and say 'with proficiency' or 'without proficiency' based on Race & Class and whether you feel like it.

Also if you made it 3D6 in order and removed feats it would give characters reasons to love those +2 increases a lot more.

Not opting-into feats also simplifies character building, also, presumably no Variant Humans.

It'd be more work for you, but you could make race & class into a single choice: Fighter(champion), Wizard(lore master), Thief(Rogue) or Cleric(life) is human, Dwarf is a Fighter(Battlerager), Elf a Fighter/Magic-user, Hobbit a fighter/thief, and Gnome an Illusionist/Thief. The multi-classes could have their own class tables that averages out like an evenly-advancing character, rather than actually alternating advancement...
You could extend it to half-elf(Druid), half-orc(Barbarian), half-Infernal(Tiefling Warlock), Half-dragon (Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer), and half-wit(back around the Human Fighter, again), if people get bored with a lack of choices.

 

[OB1]

Great suggestions in here, the three I would go with is.

3d6 in order
Gain 1 level of exhaustion each time you drop to 0 HP
DC 15 Death Saves

 

[Nebulous]

I won't repeat what has been said in this thread, but I saw lots of simple changes to really make 5th edition more deadly. Would your players be OK with this, or are they enjoying the more superhero aspects of 5th edition?

Edit - And this is exactly the kind of stuff i would love to see in that Xanathar's
book, but I don't know if it is that kind of wide open tinkering. Probably not.

 

[hejtmane]

Ok so yeah I played classic D&D and had a great time. Yes I could just go play Classic D&D and be done,finished. I realize that BUT....lets take it for a given that I don't want to do that. Lets say for instance that I love buying new stuff and my players scream 5E on waking every morning.

While I might get them to play some 5E house rules that poke and prod the edition towards deadly they would balk at playing Classic.

So for good or bad lets not waste time going down that road.



What set of house rules could you use to make 5E deadly as all get out while altering as little as possible.

Like could I you drop all monster EXP by 30% in both rewards and encounter creation to make the game harder? Give all monsters +30% damage?

When those guys made that 4E alternate house ruled deadly encounters thing with the Iron Lich and ect..what did they do?

Is it as simple as using 24 hour short rest and week long long rests? To be honest that seems boring but maybe i'm wrong.

If you guys were going to House Rule a DEADLY D&D5E set of rules what would they be?


Just how far can we push and pull the system?

Easiest way to make things deadly Up the monsters ac just a touch if they are an 18 move it to 19 the encounter just got harder adding HP helps but I find the a small AC bump changes the encounters by a big margin making them deadlier. Up the mobs you throw at them instead of just a big boss add minions tomato cans and some LT's slightly harder to the fray. I rarely ever have one big boss unless I know it will give them issues which are a few. Also play the monster like you think they would act not every mob is dumb as a box of rocks.

Give the mobs better weapons why does a knoll always have to use a spear hey he stole a big sword from the last dead guys they killed, players find magical weapons why not have a mob or an npc using the magic item they want.

Crticial fails on a 1 role I have things from doing to damage to your team mate to going prone and the mobs having advatage to you have disdvatage on your next attack. They even have random decks etc you can use as a resource.

Those are what i focus on and it has worked no major changes minor fluff stuff without having to change any rules

 

[Geoarrge]

Flattening the massive damage threshold scaling seems like a good idea.

Making use of the lingering injury table would add to attrition. While it's not a standard d20 check, the table is ordered with the worst effects lowest, so advantage/disadvantage conditions might be worth having.
Say any time you get taken down to 0, roll for a lingering injury. If it was due to a critical hit, the injury roll has disadvantage. Roll with advantage if you suffered damage less than your Constitution score.


One line of thinking I had, would be to adopt several gameplay elements from the XCOM games.

Cover
One thing that doesn't really require any new rules is simply to make sure there is plenty of cover available on your battle maps, and that intelligent monsters make good use of it. Generally this will be more advantageous to the defenders of an area.


As another rule, though, you might give advantage to all ranged attacks against unobscured creatures with no cover. In XCOM, catching a unit from any uncovered side counts as flanking.

Battlefield Healing
In XCOM, if you heal your wounded units on the battlefield, they still count as wounded when calculating recuperation time after the battle. This would translate to making battlefield healing work similarly to temporary HP. In a fantasy setting with magical healing, it might not make sense to nerf all healing spells.


Field Healing: Hit Points healed by spells 5th level or below, other class abilities that recover hit points (such as Second Wind), using a healing kit, and potions of healing are tracked separately, and removed upon the next long rest. Field healing does not have any other properties of temporary Hit Points, such as exceeding normal maximum Hit Points, or multiple sources not stacking. A dying creature stabilized by field healing who falls back to 0 Hit Points during a long rest is not in danger of dying if the rest is completed.


Rest and Healing
Healing times in XCOM typically take several days of recuperation, and of course the limited duration of field healing makes no difference if a long rest restores full health anyway. Rather then extend the duration of short and long rest periods themselves, consider only moving the healing effects over to the next category of rest: require recuperation (DC 15 Constitution save after 3 days downtime) to replenish half Hit Dice and full Hit Points, while a long rest is required to spend Hit Dice. Any other effect that allows healing during a short rest is considered field healing.


If you want to extend the XCOM adaptation further, run a campaign in which the action requires playing backup characters while the others are recuperating. Consider disallowing or reducing experience gain for characters on the bench, if you're comfortable with a mixed-level party.

Of course, any change to the rate of healing does nothing if you don't create a sense of pressure that makes the party question whether they have time to rest. However it's much easier to imagine dangerous developments over the course of days than during most overnight rests. Consider how long it takes to build new construction, send a messenger somewhere, or pack up and move.