Dealing with equipment dependency in D&D

[Someone]

That's a good idea. Something like reducing wealth to 50% and having an equivalent amount of 'virtual gold' available per level for buying innate powers would probably work nicely.

Ah, that´s what I did once in a homebrew campaing once (though it was 75/25 ´hero points´/gold). Worked well, once the players used to it. I still have the list over there, IIRC, I could translate and post it if someone is interested.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Conan d20 is an interesting take on low-magic which could be used for a low dependency D&D game (quite apart from the DMing advice that pretty much says that it is completely acceptable to start an adventure with the PC's stripped of their equipment! Nobody gets wedded to their equipment in Conan d20!)

One of the things that they do IIRC is that at 6th, 12th, 18th level you get a +1 bonus to every stat across the board (in addition to the normal +1 per 4 levels to a single stat). Also since there is free multiclassing the favoured class bonus becomes something like +1 bonus feat for every 5 levels gained in your favoured class.

The other consideration is for the DM side of the screen. Lower equipment requirements will probably mean reducing the palette of monsters you choose from. Some just won't be applicable or will become much tougher (e.g. giants if you can't all fly).

 

[I'm A Banana]

I basically do a 'paths' system with powers revolving around the deity or patron chosen by the character, replacing some of the GP with it.

However, there are a few differences:

1 - I don't charge double; when the magic items are lessened, having 'available slots' is a lot less important, and double cost has the unfortunate side effect of basically halving power...the PC's suffer a LOT. However, there are locations for these power-ups...you can't wrap yourself in an aura of charisma and an aura of resistance at the same time.

2 - I give them a good 80-90% of the wealth for their level in magic items

3 - The powers are 'extraordinary.' Mainly a flavor adjustment, but these don't go away in anti-magic fields and can't be dispelled. This does make them slightly more powerful, but it emulates the 'skill' rather than 'enchantment' that I like.

 

[Nightfall]

Well so far I have a part that, in a campaign setting like Forgotten Realms, would be very magic item poor indeed, skillfully handling the challenges equal to anything any other campaign world can deal with.

How? They have ability (thank you Scarred Lands) to call on the gods to help to deal with stuff like "I don't have a weapon that can overcome his DR!" (pray to Vangal.) Or having a feat to do it as well. (Weapon Familiars. God I love em! )

Overall I'd say they rely MORE on their skills, some combat ability, and of course spellcasting to handle the vast majority of their problems. And they do so quite well.

 

[shilsen]

shilsen
Glad this thread resurfaced.

That's a nice summing up there... feels about right for me. Do particularly like the idea of allowing items to be upgraded as well. Great for creating a signature item. Something a lot of players I know are very keen on.

Thanks. That's the reason I put it in. I like it too, and even though I haven't had the opportunity to use it as a player, I've done so before as DM. Last time, I made it an intelligent sword and gave it the power to drain other magical items to empower itself, but that was a one-time thing and I think this system will work better.

I reckon the double cost seems good for the can't be stolen/slotless nature of the powers.

Next up, playtest this and see how it works out?

I intend to. It'll be a while before I get to DM again (my group takes turns DMing), so I'll see if I can get someone else to allow it.

I supose a weakness could be linked to a cost reduction for the power. Would need to be done by ear - could take into account how common the weakness was?

Real Men (tm) would choose water, metal or air as their achillies heal.

So Superman was definitely a powergamer. Fancy space rocks indeed.

Ah, that´s what I did once in a homebrew campaing once (though it was 75/25 ´hero points´/gold). Worked well, once the players used to it. I still have the list over there, IIRC, I could translate and post it if someone is interested.

Sure - I'd like to see it.

Conan d20 is an interesting take on low-magic which could be used for a low dependency D&D game (quite apart from the DMing advice that pretty much says that it is completely acceptable to start an adventure with the PC's stripped of their equipment! Nobody gets wedded to their equipment in Conan d20!)

One of the things that they do IIRC is that at 6th, 12th, 18th level you get a +1 bonus to every stat across the board (in addition to the normal +1 per 4 levels to a single stat). Also since there is free multiclassing the favoured class bonus becomes something like +1 bonus feat for every 5 levels gained in your favoured class.

I haven't looked at the Conan game myself, but I did read (here on ENWorld, of course)some of the stuff you mentioned. I'd considered using extra level-based stats bonuses, but figured that'll require more balancing than just using something that fits within the given D&D wealth-by-level framework.

The other consideration is for the DM side of the screen. Lower equipment requirements will probably mean reducing the palette of monsters you choose from. Some just won't be applicable or will become much tougher (e.g. giants if you can't all fly).

That's another reason why I want to keep to the given wealth/magic-per-level standard. I hope the double cost approach won't be detrimental to that end.

I basically do a 'paths' system with powers revolving around the deity or patron chosen by the character, replacing some of the GP with it.

However, there are a few differences:

1 - I don't charge double; when the magic items are lessened, having 'available slots' is a lot less important, and double cost has the unfortunate side effect of basically halving power...the PC's suffer a LOT. However, there are locations for these power-ups...you can't wrap yourself in an aura of charisma and an aura of resistance at the same time.

Since I'm not going to do locations for the gained abilities, do you think the doubled price is justifiable? Perhaps 150% will be better.

2 - I give them a good 80-90% of the wealth for their level in magic items

Beyond the gained powers, or are you including them in this calculation?

3 - The powers are 'extraordinary.' Mainly a flavor adjustment, but these don't go away in anti-magic fields and can't be dispelled. This does make them slightly more powerful, but it emulates the 'skill' rather than 'enchantment' that I like.

I'm still considering whether to make the powers Sp, Su or Ex. If I made them Ex, I think the 200% cost would be a little more justifiable.

 

[MerakSpielman]

A lot of the "equipment dependency" solutions seem to have to do with giving the characters extra powers to make up for having little equipment.

I might be wrong - but doesn't that just reverse the problem? Now you have ability-dependant characters with all the benefits of expensive equipment but none of the drawbacks?

If the goal is to make their equipment exactly as important as their abilities, you have to tone down the equipment slightly, while giving slightly more powers until the two are reasonably equal.

 

[Kalendraf]

How do you balance non-spellcasting PCs against spellcasting PCs?

My feeling is that spellcasters dominate the game at higher levels even at standard wealth and item levels. If you deny the PCs magic items, doesn't that create an imbalance between nonspellcasters and spellcasters?

Granted, I don't have as much experience at high levels, and thus have no direct evidence of how well this balances things at those levels of play. The particular campaign I'm citing has gone from 1st to 10th in just over 1 year of play, and across those levels the method is working with no problems.

Without their precious items, casters are much less menacing, having fewer hit points, lower saves and their spells have lower DCs. While it may not be a completely equal nerfing that results from lowered treasure, this method does impact both casters and non-casters. If I do encounter a problem I will adjust as needed to keep things balanced.

 

[Baron Opal]

How do you balance non-spellcasting PCs against spellcasting PCs?

My feeling is that spellcasters dominate the game at higher levels even at standard wealth and item levels. If you deny the PCs magic items, doesn't that create an imbalance between nonspellcasters and spellcasters?

Not really. Once the fighter reaches the wizard, he beats the magician to paste with comfortable regularity. How does the fighter find / close with the wizard with all of his formidable powers? That's why they call it adventure.

While I haven't put this into practice yet, I have given consideration to using the hero paths from Midnight, the dragonmarks and dragonmark PrC from Eberron, and the ability to purchase feats with xp/gp. Under the guise of training under a weapons master or similar expert, I figure that purchasing feats gives the fighters something to spend their xp on when the magicians are making items. I haven't come up with a satisfactory price, however.

Also, when the magicians make an item they can drain the xp from a willing volunteer. So, when they enchant Fred's Sword of Doom, Fred can pay for the enchantment both in coin and in spirit.

Baron Opal

 

[RangerWickett]

Four-Color to Fantasy, by E.N. Publishing, has a system for granting 'super powers' in place of magic items and wealth. Through a lot of calculating, comparing, and cross-checking, I estimated that the magic items of a 20th level character are roughly equivalent to six character levels. As in, a 20th level character with no stuff is a CR 15 creature.

I don't give out much in the way of magic items, so I use the chart in FCTF to help me figure out how strong the PCs are, effectively.

Using that guideline, characters with no magic items are effectively lower level than their actual character level would indicate.


Things are normal up until 7th level. You might not be able to heal quite as fast, or hit quite as well, but the difference is minor. Thereafter, magic items begin to make a big difference.

8 - 7
9 - 8
10 - 8
11 - 9
12 - 10
13 - 10
14 - 11
15 - 12
16 - 12
17 - 13
18 - 14
19 - 14
20 - 15

This of course has a bigger impact on warrior characters, since they heavily rely on weapons and armor to be effective. Mages can get around this a bit, though they'll still be more vulnerable than usual, and their save DCs will be lower, but they can ignore that drawback by using summon monster spells.

 

[RangerWickett]

While I haven't put this into practice yet, I have given consideration to using the hero paths from Midnight, the dragonmarks and dragonmark PrC from Eberron, and the ability to purchase feats with xp/gp. Under the guise of training under a weapons master or similar expert, I figure that purchasing feats gives the fighters something to spend their xp on when the magicians are making items. I haven't come up with a satisfactory price, however.

That's a pretty good idea, actually. I once spent a long time figuring out how much XP a feat was worth, but I have since forgotten where I put my results.

Also, when the magicians make an item they can drain the xp from a willing volunteer. So, when they enchant Fred's Sword of Doom, Fred can pay for the enchantment both in coin and in spirit.

I use that rule too. Heck, it's an official part of the item creation rules in Elements of Magic.