D&D 5E Dealing with optimizers at the table

[Ruin Explorer]

Sure. But there’s a difference between being okay with being good at combat and needing to always be the best.

No badwrongfun or onetruewayism. As I said in the OP, unless it actively detracts from others’ enjoyment, it’s fine. Going all out to break the game does detract from everyone’s fun. Having the attitude of needing to always win the numbers game does detract from everyone else’s fun. Not recognizing that’s a problem is also part of the problem.

This is laughable.

Someone is always going to win the numbers game. That's a fact. It doesn't matter if you randomly assign classes, races, and stats, someone will win the numbers game.

Because of the way 5E D&D is designed, it's very likely to be consistently the same person in most combats. This is inherent to the design of 5E. There's no way around it short of making everyone play the same class with the same stats and use the same weapon. Even then, some players will likely be better at tactics, and likely win the numbers game in most fights.

Again, still haven't heard if any players have reported a problem.

There are RPGs where this is unlikely to be an issue. For example, most Powered By The Apocalypse games (though less so Dungeon World). Or equally Blades In The Dark-based games. Resistance-system games like Spire and Heart. Rules-light narrative games in general. Maybe you need to consider running those? Because what you're outlining here is literally impossible to remove from D&D.

 

[Dausuul]

That’s round after round of the optimizer dunking on and naughty word talking the non-optimizers. Nearly every round. Every combat.

"Optimizer" <-- Not the problem.
"Dunking on and naughty word talking the non-optimizers" <-- The problem.

This is why people have been asking for specifics. The focus on "optimizers" in your initial post led to a long conversation which has just been shown to be wholly irrelevant. If these guys quit optimizing, but continued to dunk on and naughty word talk the other players, you would still have a problem.

For instance, my own earlier advice (about encouraging optimizers to not step on other players' toes) won't help you, because these guys enjoy stepping on other people's toes. If you don't want to just boot them--which you would be justified in doing--my advice would be to address the specific behavior. Take them aside when they do it and say "You're doing that again," so they get clear and immediate feedback on what the problem is.

It's possible they will get the idea and shape up. It's also possible that they will brush you off and continue to behave like jerks. In the latter case, there are only two options left: Boot them, or live with it.

 

[overgeeked]

"Optimizer" <-- Not the problem.
"Dunking on and naughty word talking the non-optimizers" <-- The problem.

This is why people have been asking for specifics. The focus on "optimizers" in your initial post led to a long conversation which has just been shown to be wholly irrelevant. If these guys quit optimizing, but continued to dunk on and naughty word talk the other players, you would still have a problem.

For instance, my own earlier advice (about encouraging optimizers to not step on other players' toes) won't help you, because these guys enjoy stepping on other people's toes. If you don't want to just boot them--which you would be justified in doing--my advice would be to address the specific behavior. Take them aside when they do it and say "You're doing that again," so they get clear and immediate feedback on what the problem is.

It's possible they will get the idea and shape up. It's also possible that they will brush you off and continue to behave like jerks. In the latter case, there are only two options left: Boot them, or live with it.

Sigh.

Their optimization is the naughty word-talking. They don’t open-mouth naughty word-talk. If they had I’d have already thrown them out on their ass.

The jerk player is a jerk because of the optimization. The optimization is the problem.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

"Optimizer" <-- Not the problem.
"Dunking on and naughty word talking the non-optimizers" <-- The problem.

This is why people have been asking for specifics. The focus on "optimizers" in your initial post led to a long conversation which has just been shown to be wholly irrelevant. If these guys quit optimizing, but continued to dunk on and naughty word talk the other players, you would still have a problem.

For instance, my own earlier advice (about encouraging optimizers to not step on other players' toes) won't help you, because these guys enjoy stepping on other people's toes. If you don't want to just boot them--which you would be justified in doing--my advice would be to address the specific behavior. Take them aside when they do it and say "You're doing that again," so they get clear and immediate feedback on what the problem is.

It's possible they will get the idea and shape up. It's also possible that they will brush you off and continue to behave like jerks. In the latter case, there are only two options left: Boot them, or live with it.

Unfortunately he has now clarified that the mere fact that your PC does significantly more DPR than someone else's PC is what constitutes naughty word-talking and dunking on, not y'know, naughty word-talking and dunking, and that there's no actual bad behaviour.

 

[auburn2]

Overgeeked hasnt given examples but I’ll give an example myself of something in my game that I consider optimized to an unhealthy degree. I’ve seen this around levels 3-5

AC 22+. With a shield spell ready to tack on just in case a hit gets through.

This can be done with very little difficulty. Plate, a shield, and divine shield and the shield spell which requires little or no sacrifice. Either in action economy, ability points or feats and needs no magic items. The sorcadin can do it without blinking at level 3.

I am not sure what divine sheild is, do you mean shield of faith? If so, I don't find this overpowering at all. For several reasons

To start with, very few games I have DMed, played or seen published by WOTC are going to have PCs afford plate at level 3. In one of the two WOTC campaigns I am playing now my Wizard2/Rogue1 does not even have enough $$$ for studded leather at level 3. A level 3 sorcadin is going to have 3 spells he can cast in an entire day, shield of faith and shield are two of those and shield of faith only lasts 10 minutes. With these two things considered, this is more of a level 5 concern than a level 3 concern IMO.

At level 5 it is a good combination, but even there I do not think it is gamebreaking. You are using concentration to get a very high AC, but enemies can still penetrate it with a critical and use things like help to get a better chance at it. With 8 battles a day your level 3/2 Sorc/adin can cast cast shield of faith in 7 of them and have absolutely nothing for smites, shield spell or offensive spells. If you cash in all your sorcery points you can get SOF in that 8th battle and use 1 shield, smite or other spell some time during the day. You also are not doing top tier damage with your weapon as it is one handed. Finally unless you took warcaster feat you can't cast shield unless you divest yourself of your weapon every turn. This is going to mean dropping it on the floor every turn, where the enemy will probably pick it up as his free action after you do that a few times.

 

[TwoSix]

Unfortunately he has now clarified that the mere fact that your PC does significantly more DPR than someone else's PC is what constitutes naughty word-talking and dunking on, not y'know, naughty word-talking and dunking, and that there's no actual bad behaviour.

I guess I now have to rename the Sharpshooter feat to S**tshooter.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I guess I now have to rename the Sharpshooter feat to S**tshooter.

I think I've worked out a solution to the OP's problem actually - he just needs to track everyone's DPR in a spreadsheet, then whoever did the highest DPR has to roll a new character! Or maybe they just swap characters with the player who did the lowest DPR? I'm sure everyone would love it!

And maybe he could track meta-stats too like, if the player is top DPR more than three games out of five, despite having had to re-roll or swap characters or the like, he has to leave the group. Sort of like Big Brother or Survivor, but where if you're too good at if, you've got to go.

Oh god I kind of want to run this campaign now, it would be hysterical. Like, PCs intentionally missing, nobody is willing to cast fireball because that might put them way over the top. Barbarian "drops" his offhand weapon and doesn't bother to pick it up because he's too close behind the Fighter. Fighter is using a club instead of a longsword because he doesn't want those extra points. Uh oh it's a skeleton! Switch to your rapier to minimize DPR!

 

[Horwath]

Sigh.

Oh God...
Why am I reading this...

 

[auburn2]

Their optimization is the naughty word-talking. They don’t open-mouth naughty word-talk. If they had I’d have already thrown them out on their ass.

The jerk player is a jerk because of the optimization. The optimization is the problem.

If I am understanding you the "optimizer" doing more DPR than the others at the table is what is causing problems?

This is silly and it sounds like you have a bunch of insecure players. When the Paladin sitting next to me hits the BBEG for 60 points of damage I am celebrating and high five-ing and the fact my Rogue's short sword did 5 damage one turn before is of no consequence .... By the same token they are cheering and calling my Rogue a "legend" (true story) because I tricked an employer into paying us 6 times what we were owed for a job by twisting the agreement and embellishing what we did a bit. My Rogue has a 14 Charisma, expertise in Deception and proficiency in persuasion.

My bladesinger was the most combat "optimized" character I ever played and she did the least DPR off any of my 5E characters. She was extremely hard to hit with a sky-high AC and enemies getting disadvantage and went several levels in a row without being hit by an attack at all, despite the fact she was the first person into melee on every combat. I surely never felt underpowered or overshadowed at the table and the rest of the party was pretty stoked when she would eat up 14 attacks without a hit and just flat walk away from multiple opponents and shrug off opportunity attacks like they didn't matter. She never suffered from damage envy, the length of the fighter's greatsword was never a problem for her and I don't think the difficulty the enemy had penetrating her defense was a problem for anyone else at the table.

 

[Wolfram stout]

I must admit I agree with the folks that don't see the problem. The group I DM consist of
1) The Optimizer. He is interested in the combat side, and he is good at making those characters. To tell him to not make a combat character would be to lessen is fun.
2) The strikes my fancy guy. He will make up whatever character he finds interesting at the time. He may or may not have a focus, and he finds optimization during play where he can.....sometimes.
3) Social with a tweak guy. He usually makes up the Face character, but he always has a strategy for combat. He is not as good as Optimizer in combat but he holds his own.
4) Crazy Rogue kid. The son of the Optimizer who builds his rogues with an eye to optimization, then plays pedal to the medal (whether the situation calls for it or not).

They all have fun. #2 has fun finding things to do in combat or falls back on whatever spam attack his class has. He is outclassed in combat, but he always has something to do in and out of combat.

How non-optimized are the other players in your group? Could they be part of the problem (this should only be the case if they are intentionally making bad characters or making bad choices on purpose)