D&D 5E Dealing with optimizers at the table

[Greg K]

Let me use a separation and define terms here so we are on the same page in discussion of terms.

Having insane HP, AC, Initiative, Stealth, Slight of hand, persuasion or any other skill is an Optimizer or often called a Min/Maxer...

By traditional definition, that is not min/maxing as it does not address the min which is minimizing weaknesses.

 

[iserith]

Conversely, I'm loving my current game where you may see a 1st level & a 5th level in the same party. When PCs die, new ones come in at 1st level, so getting a PC up to higher level in this game is a significant achievement. Also I use BTB XP with most fights being multiple foes (one group of 8 3rd-5th level PCs has just been ambushed by 20 Orcs & 2 Orc champions and are worried about a TPK) so advancement is pretty slow; been playing weekly on Roll20 since August 2020 and the PCs who started then are on the verge of 5th level (one PC played in the 1e version of the game since 2017 was converted over at 4th level, using 4 1e XP = 1 5e XP, and is now 5th). All PCs Point Buy or standard array, no Feats or Multiclassing. I got a bit bored running high power, fast advancement campaigns and wanted something a bit more old school grim & gritty - turns out 5e does this really well.

When a player has a new 1st level PC they're not worried about being outshone by the level 5 Fighter; their main concern is staying alive long enough to get good. In fact they are very grateful when the F5 soaks the damage.

I also have a lot of experience with characters at different levels. It's never been an issue. With standard XP, a lower-level PC catches up really fast. My own games have never gone past 7 levels of difference, but I've played in games where tier 1 characters are alongside tier 4 (including one of my own tier 1 characters). It's worked just fine. I jumped several levels after the first fight.

 

[Dragonsbane]

Our group has moved on to Cypher System with some 5E crunch, much better IMHO for avoiding powergaming. That said, I put this in my extensive house rules:

The DM can change any rule, class, subclass, spell, feat, or other IG-mechanic to help keep the Bounded Accuracy element of D&D intact. Powergraming is permitted but anything over the top might be changed mid-game without notice.

Our list of house rules includes many things to avoid PGing, such as harder resting, no level dips, many spells and abilities changed, no bonuses on arrows or shields just powers, almost nothing stacks, items with ability score bonuses removed, etc.

If it happens IG with something new, I will often disallow the effect / nerf at that time and then chat with players after the game to decide if we should allow it. Luckily, my current group has no PGers since my house rules make any perspective PGers unhappy to say the least.

 

[MGibster]

This is an old problem. I remember reading GURPS articles back in the 80s or early 90s and ridiculous combinations of Advantages and Disadvantages there were technically allowable with rules as written but any half-way sane GM would deny. Fun combinations like creating a custom race of giants and making a character with dwarfism. (Yeah, I could see how that might work in some settings.)

I was participating in a Fate game based on the Percy Jackson books (I think) and I created a character with a very high armor. The GM took me aside and said something like, "Your character's armor is way too high. Any opponent I have that has a chance of damaging you will obliterate the other characters. Do you mind changing your character so he has lower armor?" I could see where she was coming from and readily agreed to change my character a bit to make it easier for her to run the game.

I think talking to your players is the best option. If they insist on optimizing their characters to the point where it breaks the game then just tell them they can't use that character and be sure to tell them why. It's because it makes the game less fun for everyone.

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

IME optimizers steamroll combat encounters initially only to fall against first grade puzzles, traps, and situations before wailing when their tactics are either used against them or they face actual opposition. At least role-players and casuals have the courtesy to be entertaining, inoffensive, and/or requiring little work.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Here's what I'm understanding from the OP:

The optimizers have been asked to work better with the rest of the group. They either try and fail because they just can't not process character option information the way they do, or they refuse. I'm going to assume the former so I can offer the sorts of suggestions I think the OP is looking for.

An idea occurred to me to let the optimizers get the experience they want without throwing off the power balance between optimized and non-optimized characters--which is the real issue here.

1) Assign an "optimization rating" to each PC created. The optimizers should be able to accurately assign such ratings to other people's characters, and if they seem inaccurate in play it will become obvious and can be adjusted.
2) XP is gained on a sliding scale based on optimization rating. A highly optimized character gains less XP, will fall behind in level, and therefore will end up being about as effective in combat as an unoptimized character.

This should allow the optimizers the desired experience of trying to beat the game by making a super-powerful character, except now the goal is to make a 3rd level character that's as effective as an unoptimized 5th level character. The win condition is that you're keeping up just fine even though you are lower level.

 

[Hriston]

I agree you have to choose on a session to session basis but I disagree about playing only with people who share gaming priorities. You can have a mix of min/max players, RP players, and strategic players (winning encounters using the world not character options like simply walking around or pushing a bolder off a cliff).

I didn't say "only". And sure, you can play with multiple agendas being satisfied in the same session, but when the agendas aren't compatible, it's going to put a strain on the enjoyment of the group, and something (or someone) will have to give.

You should play with friends or at least people you have fun playing with. Not playing your type of session this week does not mean you can't enjoy being a "spectator" for some session as long as the type of session you like comes up sometimes. I certainly do. I am more interested in min/max character design and strategic use if the environment (from world building etc) but I have enjoyed a number of sessions of role play and have even stepped more into the roleplay as I felt comfortable and invested in the world and story. Just don't force me to be front and center in the roleplay or never include sessions of combat/tactics and get upset when I don't want to play anymore.

Some people don't like waiting around for "sometimes". Some people don't mind. This will vary from person to person, and it just depends on who you're playing with.

 

[auburn2]

On a point of information, you don't get Advantage vs Incapacitated foes:

"Incapacitated​

• An incapacitated creature can’t take Actions or Reactions."

So it's even weaker than you thought!

It can be situationally very good, eg vs a lone BBEG you can hypnotise him, surround him, and everyone Readies attacks. It's good against a group of foes to slow them down, but doesn't become an I Win button unless you got all or nearly all of them.

Thanks. Like I said I rarely got to attack the charmed baddies anyway, which is probably why I did not remember this.

 

[TheSword]

Overgeeked hasnt given examples but I’ll give an example myself of something in my game that I consider optimized to an unhealthy degree. I’ve seen this around levels 3-5

AC 22+. With a shield spell ready to tack on just in case a hit gets through.

This can be done with very little difficulty. Plate, a shield, and divine shield and the shield spell which requires little or no sacrifice. Either in action economy, ability points or feats and needs no magic items. The sorcadin can do it without blinking at level 3.

My personal feeling on this is that it cheapens the combat because regular attacks no longer threaten that character meaningfully... and no they aren’t weaker than normal against other attacks. The above mentioned sorcadin can have very respectable saves even better as a level 6 Paladin.

It is painful to DM with. Combined with a sorcerer who optimized in fire magic to a obscene degree it spelled the end of a campaign at around level 8 that could have gone on and on. My feeling is that players that want a campaign to have longevity and for them to reach high levels should consider not optimizing.

 

[Horwath]

Overgeeked hasnt given examples but I’ll give an example myself of something in my game that I consider optimized to an unhealthy degree. I’ve seen this around levels 3-5

AC 22+. With a shield spell ready to tack on just in case a hit gets through.

This can be done with very little difficulty. Plate, a shield, and divine shield and the shield spell which requires little or no sacrifice. Either in action economy, ability points or feats and needs no magic items. The sorcadin can do it without blinking at level 3.

My personal feeling on this is that it cheapens the combat because regular attacks no longer threaten that character meaningfully... and no they aren’t weaker than normal against other attacks. The above mentioned sorcadin can have very respectable saves even better as a level 6 Paladin.

It is painful to DM with. Combined with a sorcerer who optimized in fire magic to a obscene degree it spelled the end of a campaign at around level 8 that could have gone on and on. My feeling is that players that want a campaign to have longevity and for them to reach high levels should consider not optimizing.

1st. Are your players used point buy/standard array or did the roll for stats?

2nd. Level 2 paladin/ level 1 sorcerer has 3 1st level spell slots. You use one for shield of faith(+2 AC) and one for extra +5 AC to negate one hit.
You are left with 1 spell slot of 1st level, at 3rd character level for the remainder of the day. What do you do in the next 4/5/6 encounters?

Or do your players exploit the 5MWD?

Also, if your players are optimized for combat, throw more(not higher CR) monsters at them. Fictional hill giants or undead are not at limited supply.

If they are not fighting mindless animals or undead without any control over them, opponents will usually ignore(if possible) high AC target and go for more squishy target.

Sun Tzu: "So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak."