Dear bloody god: Calystrx (Threats to Nentir Vale Preview)

[Matt James]

There are rules for scaling monsters in one of the newer books (sorry, I forget which one). I'm sure we could go from there and help you get this bad-boy up to Epic. You're players are in for a fun surprise

 

[Aegeri]

Kudos to both Matt and Mike. I can't wait to spring something like this on my players! Sad thing is, they just hit the Epic Tier! Any chance you two could give some hard and fast house rules on how to update Calastryx to the epic tier?

To be frank, just give him levels, an extra head if you feel sadistic and update the damage. This solo is so well designed, you barely need to touch the base creature (powers wise that is) in order to make this work well in low epic. At upper epic, you should consider a recharge spit attack at all targets within range as well (to deal with immobilize, slow and being punted to a corner somewhere).

But the best thing about wonderfully designed monsters is they scale up really well. Just new maths and you're set for the most part. He's already much stronger than older equivalent MM2 solos, for example the Heroslayer Hydra. Heck you might even want to remove the "End mark" and give him an accuracy and damage bonus when he is marked. Really make the defender have to make a terrible decision.

 

[Klaus]

Any chance you two could give some hard and fast house rules on how to update Calastryx to the epic tier?

Give each head its own damage type, paint it in different colors and call it Tiamat?

 

[Aegeri]

Tiamat is actually one of the only pre-MM3 solos that is really designed very well. Just give her action recovery from this monster (seriously) and up her damage appropriately.

And there you go.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm a little taken aback by the direction being taken with solos.

Solos get 'action revovery,' so the Controller - already at a loss for any use to put his AEs to - might as well just go home. Now they're flat-out ignoring marks, as well? (like it has ever been hard for a creature with a breath weapon to include the defender in the area) So the Defender might just as well hang up his shield and become a Slayer.

Is the intent, here, that Solos are that 'special time' for Strikers to shine?
Does someone think the damage kings need more spotlight time?

 

[Aegeri]

I'm a little taken aback by the direction being taken with solos.

This is pretty much the way they've been going since MM3. Monster Vaults Dragons were always the example of the model going forward.

Solos get 'action revovery,' so the Controller - already at a loss for any use to put his AEs to - might as well just go home.

Not 100% true, because such effects are incredibly important for mitigating damage output. They now simply put do not trivialize the fight and instead of stacking tons of "until end of next turn stuns/dazes" might just have to do something different.

Now they're flat-out ignoring marks, as well? (like it has ever been hard for a creature with a breath weapon to include the defender in the area) So the Defender might just as well hang up his shield and become a Slayer.

Like with effects that deny action, the point is to direct damage and prevent it from choosing what it does freely on every turn (ideally). The defender cannot hold its attention for very long and there are certain mark features that are easily removed with this.

Is the intent, here, that Solos are that 'special time' for Strikers to shine?

Strikers are going to die by the creature rending them apart with its attacks if the defender isn't taking a turn via a mark and the controller isn't preventing it from getting all its turns. There aren't a lot of squishy strikers that will take something like 3 bites (one from an AP), a breath weapon and a zone without falling over dead pretty quickly.

It reminds me of how the new Dragons at high levels are exciting, immensely challenging and force the PCs to think very tactically. Before it was "Miss with Destructive Salutation and whack until dead". The ability to shed marks should be something exceptional and not used very often on the other hand.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Strikers are going to die by the creature rending them apart with its attacks if the defender isn't taking a turn via a mark and the controller isn't preventing it from getting all its turns.

If a monster negates conditions and marks at the start of it's turn, how is the defender or controller contributing anything?

While I'll admit the early 'lockdown' exploits were broken, haven't they mostly been fixed. So a Controller might 'lockdown' a solo for a round. Yay, he got to be a controller in a fight where he otherwise struggles for relevence in almost every round.

Similarly, a fighter trying to make his mark relevent to a dragon had a tough time, he had to get his party to position themselves very carefully so the dragon couldn't just breath on all of them. Even if he did, they tended to have double-target attacks, so he still couldn't /really/ protect anyone. Again, struggling for relevence even when solos were 'too weak.'

It reminds me of how the new Dragons at high levels are exciting, immensely challenging and force the PCs to think very tactically. Before it was "Miss with Destructive Salutation and whack until dead".

Yeah, there were broken lockdowns. Those aside, how is a combat where none of your tactics do anything going to be 'more tactical?' Isn't it just down to pouring on the damage? Or is it just 'more tactical' than a pre-nerf orb lockdown, and 'pour on the damage' is the tactic?

The ability to shed marks should be something exceptional and not used very often on the other hand.

That we can agree on. Evading marks is easy enough, as it is. (I remember our talks about the Knight).

 

[Aegeri]

If a monster negates conditions and marks at the start of it's turn, how is the defender or controller contributing anything?

Action recovery works at the end of the creatures turn. The alternative kind you are thinking of works a little like superior will and applies at the start of a creatures turn.

While I'll admit the early 'lockdown' exploits were broken, haven't they mostly been fixed.

Yes, by these mechanisms.

Lockdowns were caused by the continual application of non save ends "Until X turn" effects. This is precisely what action recovery solves and it's the best way to do it.

Similarly, a fighter trying to make his mark relevent to a dragon had a tough time, he had to get his party to position themselves very carefully so the dragon couldn't just breath on all of them. Even if he did, they tended to have double-target attacks, so he still couldn't /really/ protect anyone. Again, struggling for relevence even when solos were 'too weak.'

You haven't seen a lot of good epic defender builds have you? Not being snarky, but your typical fighter mark is -3 and with Warpriest (Albeit, poor poor nerfed Warpriest) was 2 attacks for violating the mark. If that is irrelevant, you have some funny ideas. Not to mention Battleminds have the incredibly good Lightning Rush, which if you position yourself smartly can easily draw away an entire blast attack from the rest of the party.

Yeah, there were broken lockdowns. Those aside, how is a combat where none of your tactics do anything going to be 'more tactical?'

Because now you need better options: Like punting the creature away to avoid its breath and melee attacks. Instead of "Stun/Daze/Dominate until end of next turn and instantly win".

You don't appear to realize just how "I win" those effects were, because that's all that happened. Across 5 characters, apply one of them and say "I win".

Isn't it just down to pouring on the damage?

You realize the entire party is going to be utterly hammered by this creature, so "Pouring on the damage" is going to result in dead characters. In my experience, only better tactics, smart positioning and good use of powers get you through an onslaught like this - which is why the newer dragons are so much better than the originals. While "Lockdown so it can't do anything" is literally "Have the strikers win the combat without any brains or tactics".

(I remember our talks about the Knight).

If it wasn't for the slide 3 on the bite the Knight would actually be a better defender. In this case, due to ending the mark on itself the Knight is actually roughly equal: All defenders can really only occupy this creatures attention for a single turn.

 

[Nullzone]

Let's not forget as well that most defenders can still apply their mark again on the next turn; it's not like the entire job is rendered useless by this mechanism, it just forces defenders to rethink action economy and makes the rest of the team play cautiously so they don't get caught in a rampage.

 

[Klaus]

Tiamat is actually one of the only pre-MM3 solos that is really designed very well. Just give her action recovery from this monster (seriously) and up her damage appropriately.

And there you go.

And grow her to Gargantuan. "Huge" Tiamat (and Bahamut) is just plain wrong.