Death by Infelicitas - Is it acceptable?

Death by a single bad dice roll, how about it?

  • I accept if it is kept within reason

    Votes: 61 70.9%
  • I don't accept it at all

    Votes: 10 11.6%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 9 10.5%
  • Other?

    Votes: 6 7.0%

  • Poll closed .

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
For me, it is a campaign conceit - I choose based upon the feel I want for a particular game.

Most often, I don't choose to run with a high chance of random death. I've found that if such a death does occur, it puts such a damper on player enthusiasm that it isn't usually worth the thrill.

The biggest dampening of enthusiasm I ever saw was from a player who swore up and down that they accept such risk with aplomb. The reality belied the claim. I can understand that, and don't hold it against him that he was incorrect about his own reactions, but it means I take such claims with a grain of salt, unless I can document that the player really does handle it well.
 

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D&D has easy access to resurrection. Most other RPGs do not, but constently the topic of players upset about PC death is a D&D focussed topic.

I find that odd.
I don't think it's odd at all. The assumed playstyle of many other games already comes with implicit acceptance or understanding of the lethality expectations, while D&D is, as a kind of "big tent" game system, subject to a lot of personal interpretation on what playstyle really "belongs" to D&D. You don't really see players talking about character death in Cthulhu being outside of their expectations, for example.

For the question overall, I don't have a problem with it in theory, but in practice, I'd like to see the application of "save or die" or other similar effects be relatively rare, and be telegraphed in advance somewhat, so that players aren't caught off-guard by it when it is a risk. The thrill of there being some actual risk of death is important to creating a fun environment at the table, but at the same time, if characters actually die with too much frequency, the whole endeavor becomes counterproductive and generally is no longer as fun. Finding the right--and admittedly often fairly narrow--balance between those two competing priorities is one of the reasons why DMing is a more difficult art to do well then a lot of people give it credit for.
 

Celebrim

Legend
PC deaths are painful both for the players, who have invested in a character, and for DMs, who have invested in ongoing story arcs and a narrative that made the characters protagonists in the story being created.

Deaths in the ideal should never occur from a single bad roll, however, in practice this ideal is almost impossible to obtain if there is any risk in a game at all. D&D goes about as far as you can go toward death never occurring as the result of a single bad roll without giving the PC's plot immunity.

Hit points are as a mechanic designed to prevent deaths from occuring as a result of luck. They provide ablative protection that usually must be blown through before the character is at risk of death, and they leave the character under no penalty until the character is actually at death's door. This means that D&D doesn't have the death spiral associated with more 'realistic' games where injuries really matter. Combined with high AC, hit points act to fulfill the goal of providing a "chance to escape from the situation before you "accumulate" enough bad rolls" and "death must always...result from player's own stupidity".

The traditional objection to D&D's system therefore lies in the 'saving throw', which from the beginning, allowed for all varieties of 'make a single lucky die throw or die' to occur. However, a careful look at D&D's orginal design will show several things to be true:

1) Wheneever a new challenge was presented of the 'save or die' variaty, at roughly the same point a mechanic was introduced that would provide a 'get out of jail free' card. Poison was the most common 'save or die' cause, and 1e's 'Neutralize Poison' was available early in a career and could actually reverse death from poison, neutralizing the poison and the bad luck. By the time 'save or die' mechanics were common, the party was expected to have access to 'Raise Dead', which would largely mitigate most bad rolling. In short, the game expected a party to have a limited number of resources that when spent wisely largely negated bad luck.
2) Since the difficulty of saving throws was fixed, the longer you invested in the character the less likely it was that you'd die to a single roll. Combined with the increasing numbers of 'get out jail free' cards, this meant that as you became more invested in the character the string of bad luck or bad decisions required to kill the character tended to increase.

One of the problems that is easily identified in 3e by anyone who has had 1e experience is that 3e largely violated this design. Third edition 'Neutralize Poison' for example doesn't roll back the adverse effects of poisoning, but rather merely prevents future effects. Third edition saving throw difficulty tends to scale up exponentially with the linear increase in CR, resulting in a situation where, the higher you get in level the more likely it is that you fail saving throws except possibily in your 'good saves'. This meant high level 3e play was dominated by the necessity of providing yourself with a suite of immunities of various sorts, and additionally fighters found themselves no longer in the position of having across the board good saves. Additionally, 3e made official house rules regarding 'critical hits', which add an extra element of luck to the game that tends to favor the NPC's. All of this served to create an environment where one bad roll killed a character.

I think it was backlash against this design that prompted the extremely gamist design of 4e where in fact single bad rolls pretty much don't kill a character, and characters generally die only after an exhausting grind of extensive bad luck. But I think it is important to note that it is only if you go to a highly gamist design that you end up with this result. If your game is even a little simulationist at all, even if you run your game in something like 4e, you still are faced with an enormous number of 'common' situations where one bad roll or one bad decision means character death. For example, falling into deep or tempetuous waters while wearing heavy armor and not being particularly adept at swimming, results in a situation where that single falled balance check, reflex save, or what not can mean death. Death can effectively hinge on a single survival check if inexperienced characters take a boat out into open water and a storm is indicated. Any time 'falling from a great height relative to your level' is an option, death can be the result of one bad roll or one bad decision. In virtually every campaign, especially while the character level is low, there are NPCs around where one bad decision on the part of the character can cause death to hinge on either DM whim or a diplomacy 'save'. Low level characters that openly flout the law, insult or threaten the wrong persons, or simply go into the cave that has sign, 'Beware, sleeping dragon!', just because they are curious find that they face death simply by stacking the deck against themselves. Often, despite the DM's best efforts, its not clear to the players just how monumentally stupid that they are being especially when the player is used to having more or less plot protection learned either by playing video games where you can murder and rob half the town and in a half hour of real time have it all forgiven and forgotten or at a table where they enjoyed such a device.

At my own table, I still play a variaty of 3e (which I've dubbed 3.25, since it diverges from 3.0 rather than 3.5) and I've taken steps to ensure that bad luck doesn't kill PC's. A variaty of changes insure that saving throw DC's tend to increase linearly rather than exponentially, so that high level PC's only very rarely fail saves. Many spells which otherwise would be 'save or die', are altered to be 'save or dying' in my game and coup de grace while still tremendously lethal is not so automatic in its death dealing. Additionally, I've added a sparing number of 'destiny points' to the rules, which provide luck mitigation through cancelling of critical hits, the provision of rerolls on failed throws, and a variaty of other sorts benefits which have the net effect of giving players a limited number of expendable resources with the net effect of partial plot protection while they last. Additionally, I have explicit rules for a third layer of last resort plot protection in the form of divine intervention, where a player has a rather low but still meaningful chance of recieving the protection of his deity in the face of mortal danger. In two years of play, it has happened three times (roughly once every dozen sessions). In short, I've done my best to make players never have to face death from bad luck without recourse to several options. But it still happens, particularly when the party is divided and players are left to only their own resources.
 

Hand of Evil

Hero
Epic
Other

- As a GM, I do not like having players die by bad dice rolls. Yes, it is part of the game but then so is having fun BUT, it is part of the game.

It is all about building a good team and their job performance, I do and do not use fate points (unless it is part of the system), but use the concept. If players are good role-players, it can help out on bad rolls. This is stuff like interaction with the other characters, NPC and the setting. Killing a good role-player effects players job performance (playing the game), a happy team is a productive team.
 
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Ahnehnois

First Post
That's really, really a stylistic choice. Depending on what I'm going for with my campaign, I might either find every way to wrangle around it (within or even outside the rules) or kill the characters mercilessly.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Can bad dice rolls kill characters? Can characters die at all?

I agree with your players. My players prefer that also, and that's how I prefer to DM.


Recently I made a 15 question query for my players (I hope someone asks me to show the questions ;))

Can you show us those questions?:D


HOLY CRAP! I just realized I'm a black guy with a bunch of red shirts in my wardrobe! I really AM just here to show the seriousness of the situation!

If you're asked to go on an away mission: Just Say NO!;)
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Death (by single die roll) Is it acceptable?


There is always the possibility for it in games I run. When I play in the games of other GMs, I accept the type of game they wish to run. I have played in a game or two where the GM killed a lot of PCs and I lost interest in the game but that was because there wasn't really anything else going on. It was just a series of combat encounters with no real way for the PCs to matter anyway, so Teflon-coating the PCs wouldn't have made a difference.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
HOLY CRAP! I just realized I'm a black guy with a bunch of red shirts in my wardrobe! I really AM just here to show the seriousness of the situation!


Well, in our other game, I'm a scientist who pushed the boundaries of the laws of nature, so just get to the transporter room, Ensign Alcatraz. ;)
 

fenriswolf456

First Post
There should always be a chance for death, otherwise, at least for me, most encounters would be boring. Even if I'm 99% sure we'll pull through fine, it's the 1% chance that adds more interest. Otherwise, there's not really a point to rolling the dice in the first place.

Though I'm not a fan of one-shot kills or save-or-die effects. For me, a character is an emotional investment, not a stack of stats. I spend time creating them, fleshing out their personality and background, and I want to see them grow against the backdrop of the campaign. My swordmage started out as a typical 'wants to help' kind of person but without any sort of real focus. Over the campaign, she's become much more faithful to her patron god Bahumat (especially after Gardmore Abbey). She's died very recently (through Raised back) by a Drain Soul effect (save-save-die), and it was a bit upsetting at the moment (not "Blackleaf,no!" levels, but still :p ). I'm working on how all this has affected her, likely going in the 'back for a reason' direction and becoming more righteous in her dealings with antagonistic creatures.

If death isn't a possbility (or only when deemed by the collective narrative), I doubt such a development would have happened, and that would have been a missed opportunity in my books.
 

Corathon

First Post
I'm a player in 2 Savage Worlds games now. In one, the dice fall where they may and characters can die. In the other, PCs can only die under special circumstances (e.g. if they drop and an NPC cuts their throat).

I enjoy both games, but the combats in the first one are more exciting - a lot more exciting. If it were up to me, I'd allow character death in the 2nd game. And in the game that I run (AD&D 1E) death as a result of single die roll is certainly possible.

So, I prefer the possibility that a PC can die through one bad die roll (even though, in the first SW game, some of my characters have died).
 

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