D&D 5E Death Saves and Resting - A rules tweak to slay elephants and increase difficulty through all levels

[Harzel]

Note that the higher the player, the less the extended rest is required. Greater restoration is right there to ensure that.
Also, the use of the cantrip "spare the dying" will be much more common now. It will be a nice way to prevent the players to make too much "death" saves.

My only concern is that it might make the cleric a class tax. The cleric will be invaluable in the role of the healer with this implementation of the rule.

Appropriately expensive potions could assuage the lack of a cleric if it became a problem.

 

[Helldritch]

I have no choice but to agree with OB1 and Harzel.

Both solutions can work out. Modifying the way you build adventure might... should alleviate the cleric requirement and so should the potions. The price of these potions will skyrocket however. Maybe it's time to invest in some now...

 

[OB1]

Added bonus, something to spend all that treasure on at last!

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think that players will simply avoid long rest, and take extended rest.

As long as you have a daily healer or few in the party, you can log two or more long rests in a row and get healed up, even if your out of HD. HD are an even slower-recovering resource in this version, relative to slots, so their contribution is likely to be pretty limited in a practical sense.

 

[CapnZapp]

Hmm. I certainly sympathise with your goals, but I can only find tweaks that make the game more deadly and slows down recuperation.

Would this not just shift the general difficulty of the game upwards?

My own theory is that deadly encounters are fine, it's easy encounters that need to become more challenging, and not because they get individually harder, but because the resting pace is changed to fit each adventure.

In a hectic dungeon bash you might want allow 5 minute short rests and 1 hour long rests.

In a epic ocean voyage 1 day short rests and no automatic long rests at all (only when the ship is in port) might work better.

In the end, it boils down to one fact and one question:

Fact: the easy encounters need to come in clusters (up to 6-8) with no long rest in-between to be mechanically relevant.

Question: do you want the players to be able to influence the number of long rests, and hence cut down on the number of encounters between each long rest, even when that destroys any semblance of challenge?

(The default answer is an unreserved "yes", since the PHB is shock full of spells and other resources that allow the party to take long rests pretty much anywhere.

The opposite is a simple no, as is the case when you run with the Tweet rule where you need to have two encounters before you can benefit from a short rest, and you need to have two short rests before you can benefit from a long rest.

The advantage of this system is that suddenly all kinds of adventures work automatically - from the hectic dungeon bash mentioned earlier to the epic ocean voyage.)

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[clearstream]

But then where does it stop? Bardic Inspiration? Ki points? I like the breather to just be about regaining a bit of stamina, and it's a rule I implemented in my current game because their were no healers in the party. It's a nice feature that doesn't shift the power balance much because even though it's easier to use them, Hit Die are still a limited resource, whereas ability re-charges are only limited by the number of times you can rest.

That's quite an interesting point. Could it work that short rest abilities are instead recharged by spending HD (or HD pips)?

 

[Lanefan]

4. When you have a Mortal Wound, you cannot gain Temporary Hit Points from any source.

This little clause, which will fly under the radar, is probably the most important idea in this whole thing: you can't keep an otherwise-incurable person pumped up with temps. Very nice.

The only thing I'd change, if only because I could live with the complication it would produce and think the realism is worth it, would be to have the length of time an Extended Rest takes to clear all Mortal Wounds be somehow determined by how far below zero you would have gone, instead of just the flat 7 days. Maybe only one full day if you go to 0 but not below, plus another half day for each h.p. you go below 0...so if you would have gone to -1 you're looking at 1-and-a-half days of uninterrupted rest; -2 means 2 full days are required, and so forth. If you tend to give out damage in great big massive amounts maybe cap it at 10 days so it doesn't get right out of hand.

Lanefan

 

[OB1]

As long as you have a daily healer or few in the party, you can log two or more long rests in a row and get healed up, even if your out of HD. HD are an even slower-recovering resource in this version, relative to slots, so their contribution is likely to be pretty limited in a practical sense.

Yes but doing so will take at least two days (one long rest per 24 hours) and assumes that there is no combat or other challenge that might require those resources during those days. The extended rest concept is meant to force attrition during multi day journey's where there is a constant set of danger. Use all of your resources on healing, and you are making the challenges more difficult and potentially starting a vicious cycle of needing even more healing.

That's quite an interesting point. Could it work that short rest abilities are instead recharged by spending HD (or HD pips)?

That's an interesting concept. Might consider allowing HD to be traded for Bardic Inspiration Die or Superiority Die. Probably at a 2:1 ratio though.

This little clause, which will fly under the radar, is probably the most important idea in this whole thing: you can't keep an otherwise-incurable person pumped up with temps. Very nice.

The only thing I'd change, if only because I could live with the complication it would produce and think the realism is worth it, would be to have the length of time an Extended Rest takes to clear all Mortal Wounds be somehow determined by how far below zero you would have gone, instead of just the flat 7 days. Maybe only one full day if you go to 0 but not below, plus another half day for each h.p. you go below 0...so if you would have gone to -1 you're looking at 1-and-a-half days of uninterrupted rest; -2 means 2 full days are required, and so forth. If you tend to give out damage in great big massive amounts maybe cap it at 10 days so it doesn't get right out of hand.

Lanefan

It was thinking about how Inspiring Leader would react with these rule changes that led me to banning Temp hit points.

I like the concept of not having just a flat 7 days but am thinking about a slightly different implementation. Since Mortal Wounds are caused by failing any Death Save (not just the one that brought you to 0) so the number you fell below 0 wouldn't apply in all cases. What if, starting at day 5 of the extended rest, you start making DC 10 Heal checks once a day, needing 3 in a row to cure each Mortal Wound. That would mean a minimum of 7 days for 1 and 10 days if you had 2 (with 3 you would be dead). You could of course also still try the DC 20 Heal Check to rid the wound in a single night, but failure on that would mean starting the extended rest over.

 

[Lanefan]

I like the concept of not having just a flat 7 days but am thinking about a slightly different implementation. Since Mortal Wounds are caused by failing any Death Save (not just the one that brought you to 0) so the number you fell below 0 wouldn't apply in all cases. What if, starting at day 5 of the extended rest, you start making DC 10 Heal checks once a day, needing 3 in a row to cure each Mortal Wound. That would mean a minimum of 7 days for 1 and 10 days if you had 2 (with 3 you would be dead). You could of course also still try the DC 20 Heal Check to rid the wound in a single night, but failure on that would mean starting the extended rest over.

Simpler might be just to have each Mortal Wound you're trying to clear (except for the first one) add a flat 2 days to the Extended Rest requirement.

What I'm trying to get to is a situation where someone who went to 0 (and not below) be curable quite soon, while someone who provisionally went to -27 and failed 2 death saves won't be curable for 10 or 15 or 20 days.

It's actually not far from what we use now in our 1e game, only without the death save/mortal wound aspect - if you go below 0 and survive (death is at -10) you can't be cured beyond just a few h.p. for a length of time determined by how far below you went; though you can slowly rest back h.p. in the meantime.

 

[OB1]

Simpler might be just to have each Mortal Wound you're trying to clear (except for the first one) add a flat 2 days to the Extended Rest requirement.

What I'm trying to get to is a situation where someone who went to 0 (and not below) be curable quite soon, while someone who provisionally went to -27 and failed 2 death saves won't be curable for 10 or 15 or 20 days.

It's actually not far from what we use now in our 1e game, only without the death save/mortal wound aspect - if you go below 0 and survive (death is at -10) you can't be cured beyond just a few h.p. for a length of time determined by how far below you went; though you can slowly rest back h.p. in the meantime.

That definitely works for simpler, it's either 7 days with a single mortal wound or 10 days with two (3 of course and you are dead).

The reason that I don't like the number of HP below 0 to reflect into the number is that I think of HP almost strictly as Stamina Points reflecting the ability to resist pain and keep your guard up. That's why it reflects in the DC of the death save on the initial hit that brings you down to 0. The Mortal Wounds from failed death saves are the only real damage to the body being done, and thus need extended periods of rest, magic like greater restoration, or risky field surgery to overcome.

Hmm. I certainly sympathise with your goals, but I can only find tweaks that make the game more deadly and slows down recuperation.
Would this not just shift the general difficulty of the game upwards?
...
Question: do you want the players to be able to influence the number of long rests, and hence cut down on the number of encounters between each long rest, even when that destroys any semblance of challenge?
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Let me start by saying, Capn, that I'm trying to solve for my table, not yours, so I'm sure we are going to differ on this. If you want to help with that, cool, but if not, I think there are plenty of threads dealing with your issues with the game

Also, LOL that you mention that EASY encounters should be more challenging. Kind of defeats the point of being easy then...

So in answer to your question, yes, I want players to be able to influence the number of long rests, even if it affects challenge. If they can find a way to take a rest and still meet the goals of their mission, more power to them. I'm trying to make it more difficult for them to do so, especially when they are on long treks through dangerous areas that may not have daily encounters, but could have several over the course of the week. I'm also trying to make dropping to 0 HP much more meaningful, as that makes each encounter potentially more dangerous and to keep them out of the mindset that every challenge should be met with violence.

Most importantly, for the way I pace adventures, I absolutely do not want every encounter the players have to be locked into a set formula for resting. I prefer to use uncertainty about the ability to get rest and the number of challenges to be faced as the way to make my adventures challenging and am looking for ways to do so while still giving the players control with a consistent set of rules. The "no rests unless a certain number of encounters completed rule" is just too gamist for me and my table.