D&D 5E Death Saves and Resting - A rules tweak to slay elephants and increase difficulty through all levels

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Point 2) Yep it might come to that. But fortunately, with better tactics the "healer" will not be that much boxed in the role of healer.

But this again presupposed a healer, which is the exact point against it - requiring that role because self-healing during an adventure has been so curtailed. Would you play a character with these rules in a group with no magical healing?
 

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TallIan

Explorer
4. When you have a Mortal Wound, you cannot gain Temporary Hit Points from any source.

While I find the rest of your idea interesting, and well discussed in the rest of the thread, this point jumps out at me as really bad. It really screws over certain class features. In particular the abjuration wizard 3rd and 6th level ability get taken away because of a single unlucky roll - you aren't taking away the battle masters superiority dice and extra feat after his first failed death save. Warlocks relying on fiendish vigor (a not insignificant investment) lose a lot and some not-great-but-flavourful abilities like inspiring leader become even less appealing.

Other classes that aren't relying on THP's don't lose that much from this. A sword and board meat shield won't care all that much that he can't get a few extra HPs. Either it will be taking a huge amount of party resources to top up his HPs each turn and make a difference to his HP or if he's close do hitting 0 HP and the fight isn't nearly over anyway the party is in a bad way.

In short, the very different effect this has on different build make this not great IMO.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
This would imply two sets of HP. A bit like at la Palladium game system. In that game you have HP and SDC.
Or Star Wars RPG with its Wound and Vitality Points, yes.

May be it would be easier to separate HP according to initial level and leveled hp?
Example: 1st level fighter. 13Ihp. Every hit affect initial hp. Every hit are potential wounds, thus a roll on a wound table such as the one in the DMG but only if a character goes down?
2nd level fighter, 13Ihp + 9Lhp. Now no potential wounds until the 9 Lhp wounds are gone. The 9 Lhps can be cured by any magic but the 13hp could only be cured via potions, or cure wounds. Word of healing (and mass healing) would only cure Lhps.
We already have something similar in our 1e game: Body Points and Fatigue Points, the sum of which are your Hit Points.

All creatures have body points. For most "kindred races" it's a d4 to d6 worth of these, depending on race, with a minimum set by your Con. Commoners, adventurers, everyone gets these.

On top of these come your fatigue points. These are what you roll for each level...and yes this means everyone has a few more h.p. than RAW would suggest once you add in body points...and progress as normal.

B.p. are harder to cure and-or rest back - cure spells roll lower dice to fix them, and so forth, and my game doesn't have healing word or any other ranged curing so I happily get to ignore how that would work. But you can rest them back, even if slowly.

This could be viable for some people. But it has some perverted effects...

1) It introduces a new complexity that is not necessarily required. More realism but at the cost of complexity.
2) More math will be involved, especially in games where people roll their hp, even at first level.
It's not hard at all to get used to...and hit points are always rolled. :)
3) Monsters will have to redesigned. Curing might not be something in some games, but it is mine as I rarely pitch my players against only a single type of monsters. How much Ihp does a dragon, an ogre or even a kobold sorcerer should have?
Again, not that difficult: just determine how many b.p. a monster might have (e.g. a kobold might have d3 at best) and either add that to their h.p. total or - in the case of giants and other big things - just assume that most of their h.p. are body points. It's not often anyone bothers curing up the monsters they just beat, so that shouldn't be a concern.
4) Some magic items might require some tweaking too. What about the potion of vitality? Should it restore a bit of Lhp now?
I just have curing potions work the same regardless of the type of points being cured...part of the benefit of the magic in the potion, I suppose. :)
5) The mecanic of temporary hp might need some more thoughts.
Trivially easy: temps are always fatigue points - even if you're otherwise at less than full b.p. - and always get "used up" first when taking any damage.

Our system is written up at the link below if you want to look at it in more depth.

http://www.friendsofgravity.com/gam...ecast-blue-book-in-html/decbluebook4.html#hit

Blue said:
Among the points I'm looking for in an RPG damage system are:

1. Avoiding death spirals.
The simplest way to avoid or break death spirals is to rest until you're fully recovered. If there's a time crunch to the mission then there's some hard choices to make...odds of survival vs. odds of success. I like this.
2. Avoiding requiring a player to be "the healer".
If a healer is needed and nobody wants to play it (rarely a problem IME) then the DM can always chuck an NPC healer into the party - if the PCs are wise enough to go out and recruit one. :)

Lanefan
 

OB1

Jedi Master
While I find the rest of your idea interesting, and well discussed in the rest of the thread, this point jumps out at me as really bad. It really screws over certain class features. In particular the abjuration wizard 3rd and 6th level ability get taken away because of a single unlucky roll - you aren't taking away the battle masters superiority dice and extra feat after his first failed death save. Warlocks relying on fiendish vigor (a not insignificant investment) lose a lot and some not-great-but-flavourful abilities like inspiring leader become even less appealing.

Other classes that aren't relying on THP's don't lose that much from this. A sword and board meat shield won't care all that much that he can't get a few extra HPs. Either it will be taking a huge amount of party resources to top up his HPs each turn and make a difference to his HP or if he's close do hitting 0 HP and the fight isn't nearly over anyway the party is in a bad way.

In short, the very different effect this has on different build make this not great IMO.

I see where you are coming from but not sure I agree.

I'm not sure you can characterize this as a single unlucky roll since they had to get down to 0 HP in the first place and the THP should help prevent that which is the result of many rolls and decisions over many rounds.

It's really about a change in tactics. Instead of the players thinking, no big deal if I drop to 0 HP, someone can healing word me back up and then I can THP some more protection, with these rules in place everyone has to guard against getting to 0 HP in the first place.
 

TallIan

Explorer
I see where you are coming from but not sure I agree.

I'm not sure you can characterize this as a single unlucky roll since they had to get down to 0 HP in the first place and the THP should help prevent that which is the result of many rolls and decisions over many rounds.

It's really about a change in tactics. Instead of the players thinking, no big deal if I drop to 0 HP, someone can healing word me back up and then I can THP some more protection, with these rules in place everyone has to guard against getting to 0 HP in the first place.


Ok saying it was down to a single die role was somewhat childish hyperbole, but my point is valid - some classes/builds are much more screwed by this than others. Which is why I think it's a bad idea. Admittedly I may be fixing on abjuration wizard a little here, but a fighter doesn't lose his fighting style or his bonus feat, an evocer still gets his sculpt spells ability, but there are some other builds and abilities that your idea affects unequally because of this one point.
 

Psikerlord#

Explorer
I think the OP's proposed system works well for hp - PCs can get back hp quickly when they need to, but HD do not come back easily, which I like - there is some attrition game. You might want to remove the healer feat.

However this system does not address the main "7 day wilderness trek adventure" problem of nova, smash enemies, 8 hr rest, repeat.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I think the OP's proposed system works well for hp - PCs can get back hp quickly when they need to, but HD do not come back easily, which I like - there is some attrition game. You might want to remove the healer feat.

However this system does not address the main "7 day wilderness trek adventure" problem of nova, smash enemies, 8 hr rest, repeat.
Yeah, I think while talking about elephants recently we sort of determined this problem needs a big enough hammer to fix that one risks shattering the rest of the game in the process.

Unfortunately.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
Ok saying it was down to a single die role was somewhat childish hyperbole, but my point is valid - some classes/builds are much more screwed by this than others. Which is why I think it's a bad idea. Admittedly I may be fixing on abjuration wizard a little here, but a fighter doesn't lose his fighting style or his bonus feat, an evocer still gets his sculpt spells ability, but there are some other builds and abilities that your idea affects unequally because of this one point.

And the abjuration wizard doesn't lose her ability to cast spells. And everyone loses the chance to benefit from Inspiring Leader. And ultimately, if you have a regular source of THPs compared to someone else in the same class as you, you should have an advantage against needing to make the death save that could lead to a mortal wound in the first place.

I think the OP's proposed system works well for hp - PCs can get back hp quickly when they need to, but HD do not come back easily, which I like - there is some attrition game. You might want to remove the healer feat.

However this system does not address the main "7 day wilderness trek adventure" problem of nova, smash enemies, 8 hr rest, repeat.

Well, 24 hour rest (because you can only benefit from a long rest once a day).

And how many days will it take you to get through the dangerous wilderness if you are only traveling 5 minutes a day (or even an hour or two)? And are those monsters just waiting for you to come to them instead of seeking them out?

And because of Mortal Wounds, any period of travel where you aren't guaranteed the ability to take an extended rest becomes more dangerous, as there are consequences for getting dropped to 0 HP, which means that you need to take a more defensive posture in combat making it more difficult to go full offensive nova.

At least that's the goal :)
 

Harzel

Adventurer
4. When you have a Mortal Wound, you cannot gain Temporary Hit Points from any source.

While I find the rest of your idea interesting, and well discussed in the rest of the thread, this point jumps out at me as really bad. It really screws over certain class features. In particular the abjuration wizard 3rd and 6th level ability get taken away because of a single unlucky roll - you aren't taking away the battle masters superiority dice and extra feat after his first failed death save. Warlocks relying on fiendish vigor (a not insignificant investment) lose a lot and some not-great-but-flavourful abilities like inspiring leader become even less appealing.

Without taking a stand on your more general point, I think your example may not be apt. Arcane Ward is not temporary hit points, in the sense of "temporary hit points" being the term specifically defined in the PHB. https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/15/abjurers-arcane-ward-and-temporary-hp/ . That said, I don't know whether [MENTION=6796241]OB1[/MENTION] intended the restriction to apply to Arcane Ward also, or not. It would be interesting to know.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
Without taking a stand on your more general point, I think your example may not be apt. Arcane Ward is not temporary hit points, in the sense of "temporary hit points" being the term specifically defined in the PHB. https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/15/abjurers-arcane-ward-and-temporary-hp/ . That said, I don't know whether [MENTION=6796241]OB1[/MENTION] intended the restriction to apply to Arcane Ward also, or not. It would be interesting to know.

Hadn't thought about arcane ward originally but give this I would say you can still use arcane ward with a Mortal Wound since it is external to the PC and isn't considered THP by rule.


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