D&D 5E (2014) Death Saves and Resting - A rules tweak to slay elephants and increase difficulty through all levels

[Stalker0]

While I think you can play with the rest and durations, I think the core concept is simple and does the job. I like it!

 

[Nevvur]

What are temporary hit points in your games? I treat them as a kind of magical shield, not an augmentation to a person's natural hardiness. Also, every source of THP I can think of comes from a magical source, and it seems odd that magic specifically designed to protect a person wouldn't function at a time when that person needs protection the most. Accordingly, the inability to acquire THP due to injury doesn't make sense to me.

Everything else seems reasonable for what you want to accomplish. I use a very similar schema for resting as you. As with any house rule, you'll want to carefully observe your players' reactions, and probably collaborate with them if they're not as enthusiastic about the changes as you are. They'll probably have more valuable feedback than a bunch of strangers on the Internet.

 

[Tony Vargas]

every source of THP I can think of comes from a magical source

Inspiring Leader.

 

[Lanefan]

That definitely works for simpler, it's either 7 days with a single mortal wound or 10 days with two (3 of course and you are dead).

The reason that I don't like the number of HP below 0 to reflect into the number is that I think of HP almost strictly as Stamina Points reflecting the ability to resist pain and keep your guard up. That's why it reflects in the DC of the death save on the initial hit that brings you down to 0. The Mortal Wounds from failed death saves are the only real damage to the body being done, and thus need extended periods of rest, magic like greater restoration, or risky field surgery to overcome.

Ah. I see hit points as being partly "meat" most of the way and nearly all meat once you're near or at or below 0 - which means the 5e idea of going to a different mechanic (death saves) on hitting 0 rather than just keeping count below 0 and setting a death point at some minus number is for me an inelegant disconnect.

Your idea solves some of this disconnect, I'm just trying to take it further.

Lanefan

 

[OB1]

What are temporary hit points in your games? ...

... As with any house rule, you'll want to carefully observe your players' reactions, and probably collaborate with them if they're not as enthusiastic about the changes as you are. They'll probably have more valuable feedback than a bunch of strangers on the Internet.

Both HP and THP in my game represent the ability to keep your guard up to prevent serious injury. THP just lets you go beyond your normal maximum, to push beyond your normal limits.

The feedback from my players is certainly the most important thing, but the strangers on these boards tend to do a great job of helping me see potential issues with math, balance, and even fun before I reveal to the group. I've found that well thought out changes are almost always better received, and the amazing peeps on Enworld always make my ideas better, even when I disagree with them.

Ah. I see hit points as being partly "meat" most of the way and nearly all meat once you're near or at or below 0 - which means the 5e idea of going to a different mechanic (death saves) on hitting 0 rather than just keeping count below 0 and setting a death point at some minus number is for me an inelegant disconnect.

Your idea solves some of this disconnect, I'm just trying to take it further.

Lanefan

Yeah, for me there was a huge disconnect with death saves going away the moment you get healing, because spells like cure wounds and healing word don't heal physical damage, they just restore your stamina. Restoration spells do that.

I kind of went halfway with my original fix and had death saves go away after a short rest, but this is much more satisfying to me.

I have been considering allowing the number of max Mortal Wounds before death equal 2 or your Con bonus, whichever is higher.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, for me there was a huge disconnect with death saves going away the moment you get healing, because spells like cure wounds and healing word don't heal physical damage, they just restore your stamina.

Suggest then that you rename "cure wounds" in your game to "cure fatigue" or "cure stamina", as wounds very strongly implies physical injury.

Any ranged healing should only cure fatigue and thus not work at all on someone who is at or below 0 - and as a pleasant side effect much of the whack-a-mole aspect of combat goes away as now you need to ranged-heal them before they fall over.

Lanefan

 

[Helldritch]

@Lanefan
This would imply two sets of HP. A bit like at la Palladium game system. In that game you have HP and SDC.

So.
May be it would be easier to separate HP according to initial level and leveled hp?
Example: 1st level fighter. 13Ihp. Every hit affect initial hp. Every hit are potential wounds, thus a roll on a wound table such as the one in the DMG but only if a character goes down?
2nd level fighter, 13Ihp + 9Lhp. Now no potential wounds until the 9 Lhp wounds are gone. The 9 Lhps can be cured by any magic but the 13hp could only be cured via potions, or cure wounds. Word of healing (and mass healing) would only cure Lhps.

This could be viable for some people. But it has some perverted effects...

1) It introduces a new complexity that is not necessarily required. More realism but at the cost of complexity.
2) More math will be involved, especially in games where people roll their hp, even at first level.
3) Monsters will have to redesigned. Curing might not be something in some games, but it is mine as I rarely pitch my players against only a single type of monsters. How much Ihp does a dragon, an ogre or even a kobold sorcerer should have?
4) Some magic items might require some tweaking too. What about the potion of vitality? Should it restore a bit of Lhp now?
5) The mecanic of temporary hp might need some more thoughts.

The more you modify a system, the more you have to check what it will impact.
But the basic idea has a lot of merits.

 

[Blue]

Among the points I'm looking for in an RPG damage system are:

1. Avoiding death spirals.
2. Avoiding requiring a player to be "the healer".

Death spirals, seen for example in many Shadowrun editions, is where it gets harder and harder to avoid death such that characters can go from hurt to dead much quicker than they go from unwounded to hurt.

The first levels of exhaustion make it hard to recover from a string of bad luck and could qualify, but I'm more interested in exhaustion level 3. Given that there are other ways to gain exhaustion, including failing the Mortal Wound recovery save during a long rest which changes the long rest from reducing it by one to increasing by one (a 2 level of exhaustion difference), this is a real possibility. And at level 3 you now have disadvantage on those death saves, making it that much more likely to die.

As for requiring a healer, I've played D&D for a long time and remember the resigned "ok, I'll play the cleric" of early editions. One of the improvements made in the game back in 4e edition was that you didn't need a healer. One was fantastic, but it was possible to adventure without one just like it was possible to adventure without any other specific niche.

The restriction of HD recovery to 1-2 per long rest removes this evolution. Yes, it allows a longer term attrition battle against characters, but the amount of self-healing only vs. a single healer now available over let's say a week of active adventuring is staggeringly different. This is an active step back, removing an evolution in gaming systems.

I see what you are going for, and I'm can support a table with lasting consequences and long-term attrition. But the these two points are of real concern to me.

The first could be addressed by allowing exhaustion to be recovered on a long rest regardless. If you're wounded and rest, you have rested.

The second I'm not so sure what to do. Magical healing makes the HD recovery reduction minimal, but makes playing without magical healing a much bigger penalty then playing without some other character role. Personally, since the affect is not a big deal at all when you have a healer, I'd just drop that and allow the normal half-HD recover per long rest.

 

[Helldritch]

[MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION]
Point 1) Yep it makes up for a small death spiral if the players are not careful. On the other hand it might forces players to change tactics and you might see some of them appear in your games. The famous dodge action is already pretty much in use in my games whenever a convenient choke point can be used and that is with normal rules and even with clerics in the party. It could be a nice artificial way to introduce a difficulty between the famous "gritty realism" and the standard rule. The work on that approach isn't completed yet, so take everything you see in here with a grain of salt. But your concerns are welcome.

Point 2) Yep it might come to that. But fortunately, with better tactics the "healer" will not be that much boxed in the role of healer. Now most healer type can do more than healing and the impact of non healing spells is much greater than before. In addition, why not make potions of healing a bit more affordable? Some ointment like Keogtom's but on a lesser degree, such as this: Keogtom's lesser ointment of healing: 1 minute to apply, restore 2d4+2 hp for maybe 25 gold? This would pretty much restrict its use for after fights and to "breathers" or "short rests". It would have the additional benefits of giving medicine, alchemy or herbalism kits some more usage as you might need one of these to either apply it properly (a successful medicine DC 20 enhance the ointment's effects by 50%) and the other two could be used to create the said ointment.

The possibilities are endless. We just have to weight them carefully.

 

[OB1]

Among the points I'm looking for in an RPG damage system are:

1. Avoiding death spirals.
2. Avoiding requiring a player to be "the healer".

Death spirals, seen for example in many Shadowrun editions, is where it gets harder and harder to avoid death such that characters can go from hurt to dead much quicker than they go from unwounded to hurt.

The first levels of exhaustion make it hard to recover from a string of bad luck and could qualify, but I'm more interested in exhaustion level 3. Given that there are other ways to gain exhaustion, including failing the Mortal Wound recovery save during a long rest which changes the long rest from reducing it by one to increasing by one (a 2 level of exhaustion difference), this is a real possibility. And at level 3 you now have disadvantage on those death saves, making it that much more likely to die.

As for requiring a healer, I've played D&D for a long time and remember the resigned "ok, I'll play the cleric" of early editions. One of the improvements made in the game back in 4e edition was that you didn't need a healer. One was fantastic, but it was possible to adventure without one just like it was possible to adventure without any other specific niche.

The restriction of HD recovery to 1-2 per long rest removes this evolution. Yes, it allows a longer term attrition battle against characters, but the amount of self-healing only vs. a single healer now available over let's say a week of active adventuring is staggeringly different. This is an active step back, removing an evolution in gaming systems.

I see what you are going for, and I'm can support a table with lasting consequences and long-term attrition. But the these two points are of real concern to me.

The first could be addressed by allowing exhaustion to be recovered on a long rest regardless. If you're wounded and rest, you have rested.

The second I'm not so sure what to do. Magical healing makes the HD recovery reduction minimal, but makes playing without magical healing a much bigger penalty then playing without some other character role. Personally, since the affect is not a big deal at all when you have a healer, I'd just drop that and allow the normal half-HD recover per long rest.

Couple of notes here. Players do have the option to not try and cure the mortal wound during a long rest and ensuring that they recover that level of exhaustion. It's supposed to be a calculated risk to do a field surgery to get rid of the wound.

As for the HD attrition, I'm back and forth on that option, and I definitely don't want to "force" having someone with healing magic on the team, especially since my PCs don't have a strong healer in the party. It's probably enough that players won't recover HD on a long rest if they have a level of exhaustion or a mortal wound. On the other hand, I do think that getting into deadly fights day after day should be dangerous! And really, this is only going to come into play when the PCs are facing a long journey into dangerous territory. Most of the time, they will be able to accomplish a mission in a single day and have plenty of time to rest afterwards. Hmmm, maybe allow for half HD if you rest and feed well in a secure area or if in the wilderness, make a survival check. Something like DC10 + the number of total HD trying to be recovered, with failure meaning everyone gains a level of exhaustion.